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If Phil Simmons didn’t care whether West Indies won or lost cricket matches, he would still be in a job today. But he did. So he isn’t.
(Copyright Phillip Spooner/WICB Media)
From the moment Simmons chose to retain the notion that, as West Indies cricket coach, he deserved the best players available to win matches, he was on a collision course with the West Indies Cricket Board (WICB). And there was only ever going to be one winner there.
Not literally of course. There are no winners in Caribbean cricket anymore, just losers. Why else would the regional cricket boards re-elect Dave Cameron as president in March?
In Cameron’s first term he oversaw the total breakdown of trust between cricketers and administrators, the first abandonment of a Test series outside of war or natural disaster—that’s if one doesn’t consider Cameron himself to be a natural disaster—and put the WICB on the verge of bankruptcy by exposing regional cricket to a US$42 million lawsuit from the BCCI (Board of Control for Cricket in India).
Re-electing Cameron is like west African governments finding the cure for Ebola but opting to give the disease another two years, just to see what happens.
And that brings us to Simmons: the eager-beaver Trinidadian who represented West Indies back when the maroon cap was cricket’s equivalent to a Barcelona first team jersey.
(Copyright AFP 2015)
Part of Simmons probably wanted to play a role in the restoration of the West Indian game. The other half probably knew he could only get so far as the Ireland coach and wondered what he could accomplish with players like Kraigg Braithwaite, Kieron Pollard, Dwayne Bravo and Sunil Narine at his disposal.
Due diligence works both ways though. And Simmons ought to have known that much of West Indies’ problems exist above its coach’s pay grade.
Maybe Simmons hoped to coax Cameron and company into the light by tantalising the WICB board with the prospect of a return to winning ways.
If so, Simmons either overestimated his skills as a salesman. Or he underestimated the twisted bitterness that Cameron, CEO Michael Muirhead and Director of Cricket Richard Pybus nurse towards young West Indian cricketers.
Bravo and the West Indies team in India asked only that Cameron retain their existing Memorandum of Understanding until he could speak to his key employees face to face.
(Courtesy WIPA)
The WICB responded with indignation not seen since the Afrikaner National Party stubbornly tried to preserve apartheid.
They preferred to let West Indies cricket go bust than sit across the table from the players whose exploits on the field pay their salaries.
And now Simmons wants to bring those boys back just because he thinks it would help West Indies win matches? Seriously?!
Pybus is probably picking a spot between T20 captain Darren Sammy’s shoulder blades as we speak. It would complete the cull, as he has already seen off the Test and ODI captains, Denesh Ramdin and Bravo respectively.
Let us not play dumb—and I’m looking at you here selector Courtney Walsh.
The trio at the WICB’s helm all accepted their respective posts between 2012 and 2013. At the time, West Indies was the defending T20 World Cup champion and ranked seventh in the world in Tests and One Day Internationals and second in T20.
(Courtesy khelnama.com)
And how have Cameron, Muirhead and Pybus done?
Well, the West Indies team is now eighth in the Test rankings, ninth in ODIs and fifth in T20. And the region has not lifted a trophy or won a single Test against a higher-ranked nation during that period.
Not until Simmons got here anyway.
When West Indies beat England by five wickets at Bridgetown in May, it was the first time the regional team had beaten anyone higher up the Test rankings since a win over Pakistan at Georgetown in April 2011.
Perhaps Mr Live Wire should put that another way.
The last time the West Indies punched above its weight in a Test match: Andy Carroll was at Liverpool, Osama Bin Laden was alive and Jack Warner was still a FIFA vice-president.
And yet Pybus, who claimed in a 2014 report that his mission was to make West Indies the number one cricket team in the world, did not think that their most successful coach in five years, Simmons, and team captain Jason Holder might be better placed to decide which players offer the best chance for success in Sri Lanka.
(Copyright AFP 2015)
Instead, Simmons was suspended via email and sent to bed like Oliver Twist.
“The chairman didn’t even have the balls to see me personally, he got one of his henchmen to do it for him… It was a political decision… But what goes around, comes around and he was sacked as chairman shortly afterward!”
That was not Simmons. It was an interview Pybus gave to Border cricket after he was sacked by the Pakistan Cricket Board.
“What goes around, comes around…”
One can only hope.
There is irony everywhere. Eldine Baptiste will replace Simmons as coach for the Sri Lanka series.
Baptiste was sacked by Kenya after falling out with his senior players and losing all six matches at the 2011 World Cup, including a five wicket defeat to Canada. He applied for the West Indies coaching job, earlier this year, but could not compete with Simmons’ CV.
So, the WICB made Baptiste a selector instead and, after ensuring his employers got their way by helping outvote Simmons and chairman of the selectors, Clive Lloyd, he gets to be coach after all—albeit as a caretaker for now.
What company in the world would give one person the job of reshaping its fortunes and then give a lesser candidate the chance to undermine him by withholding his most valuable tools?
That was just to see if you were still awake. Of course the WICB would do just that.
It makes perfect sense if you don’t think about it. And they probably don’t.
Hands up if you think the West Indies players are dying to hear what pearls of wisdom Baptiste has to offer…
Baptiste still needed two other selectors to vote against Lloyd and Simmons and to disregard team captain Jason Holder’s plea to allow Pollard and Bravo to contribute once more to the game they love.
And one of those selectors was Walsh.
No, it was not enough that Cameron, Muirhead and Pybus are crushing the souls of our young cricket stars. They are also smashing the backbones of our old cricket icons.
The entire West Indies team should get to London by Thursday from where they will head for Sri Lanka.
Or maybe some players will break free from camp, sneak on to a train, avoid Hungary and get to German soil.
Granted, it is impossible to top Syria president Bashar al-Assad’s inhumanity to his own people.
But who in Germany’s Immigration Department could not melt when he hears what Cameron did to Walsh.
And Simmons?
(Copyright AFP 2015)
His attempts to sell Cameron’s cartel on winning matches by picking players they don’t like, were like peddling vegan pies at KFC.
Not surprisingly, they did not bite.
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I THINK FINALLY T&T SHOULD GO IT ALONE, OUR PLAYERS STARRED IN EVERY CT20 GAME, AND INTERNATIONAL CT20s. HOW MUCH MORE ABUSE CAN WE TAKE. BEFORE ANY ONE JUMP ON MY THROAT, WHY DON’T WE WE HAVE A WI FOOTBALL TEAM AGAIN
Yeah, man. I agree with that. Let’s not attempt to solve the problem; let’s find a way around way that seems to work. Yeah, mon! And you see England inviting T& for a three-Test series, right? Ditto Australia, ent?
Jesus! Like deh put we so!
“If Phil Simmons didn’t care whether West Indies won or lost cricket matches, he would still be in a job today. But he did. So he isn’t.” Mr. livewire
These are all lessons learnt… Does the WICB function on a morality of it own.
A FIFA clone! Only this one in cricket!
One thing that I can’t understand is how come nobody is prepared to question whether a man like Courtney Walsh could seriously be accused of bowing to outside interference in doing his duties as a Selector.
Gerard, I missed the programme but I think Andre Baptiste may have provided a clue in the teaser to this week’s i95.5 Thursday sports special. is it a fact, he asked, that Courtney Walsh has just landed a contract with the ICC courtesy the WICB? His question, not mine!
We should keep our ears open for the answer…
I think PM Rowley should have a re-think of his no Caricom interference approach. Windies Cricket cannot continue on this road to oblivion. Grenada’s PM has already voiced his opinion and the other PMs must get into the act. Enough is enough.
Raymond, the politicians have their own problems to solve. In my view, Rowley is right to decide to stay out of it AND OBSERVE. It may become necessary for the politicians to intervene but for the moment, the politics will suffice. And politics is not about politicians but about people.
This is a problem that cricket fans have to solve, cricket fans and cricketers. What, for instance, do you imagine would have happened if we had been able to convince the players not to go to Sri Lanka in protest against the WICB’s high-handedness? Were my son or my brother on the team that is what I would have done…or tried to do
On anther thread I posed the rhetorical question ‘Is West Indies cricket beyond repair?’ At first it was the WICB against the players, now it the WICB, the WIPA and the players, talk about a house divided against itself! I guess it says something that there’s people still willing to discuss the appalling state of WI cricket. Has anyone noticed what has happened to the Windies fan base? WI cricket is bankrupt in every sense of the word and it’s nothing new. The WICB is an excellent example of a neo-colonial institution existing in a modern world, it survives yet fails to thrive. It’s all about the exercise of power. Why was Cameron’s able to avoid censure over his Gayle twitter blunder? Why was he re-elected after India? But Cameron is merely a symptom of the problem, that didn’t start now, that continues to plague us! .http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/605998.html.
“Apres ca,” the French say, “on tire l’echelle.” Loosely translated, I guess you could say it means, “We could stop talking now.” “Nutten more to say.”
The bankruptcy is a regional problem and it’s not limited to cricket. But you must have noticed the wide variety of voices making themselves heard here on wired868. This forum is slowly becoming a place where people are not afraid to talk freely and frankly about our problems. If that continues, I feel sure that that dialogue will enrich us all.
From the moment I saw Cameron was re-elected my heart sank. Now we’re seeing the further disintegration of our cricket, as if things weren’t bad enough!
I would like to know what sweet deal he offered to get the regional boards to re-elect him.
Phil remember what father Foley taught us up at the Cross right will always prevail. Depp inside the West Indian cricket community is aware you are the man to restore pride to our game, so pray and ask for what you need never fearing anything or any one. I pray that this does not make you loose faith in what you set out to achieve, stay the course my good friend, stay the course.
Is said before , The Board of WICB somewhere along their line of illogical thinking, believes that because they have a “Flag” means that the WICB is an “independent State” with the Caricom region, and is so doing can lay claim to “sovereignity”being accountable to no one.
Same shit different day , time for Trinidad to move on . It may take ten or fifteen years to build and make Test status but so be it . It would also be a fantastic catalyst to build our counties patriotism , something that will go far beyond the sporting arena , and PRICELESS !!!!
We now know where the WICB got the bad advice from!!! ? ? ?
Well, at least we got rid of one of the major road blocks to progress, eh. Lol ???
True!!! It all happen when you stop advising the WICB, I felt my 100% record will go!!! Let me know when you start back advising WICB, so I can consider making a return. I know that I never thanked you enough but thanks again. ???
Hahaha, don’t worry I will let you know. Every badman eventually meets his match eh, ask Billy The Kid. ?
????
Have a good night all. Time for bed!
clive lloyd have no balls!…
Haha! Good Luck with Gerard….send him and Cameron & co to play the game, they could do with a good knees up at taxpayers expense. Pinard is the classic case of how it shouldnt be done and he refuses to budge
Gerard Emile Zatopek Pinard “We have a tendency though to be lax in our criticism of the Players while being at the other end of the spectrum where the Board is concerned. Admittedly, much of it has been deserved (give a dog a bad name) but too many of us are simply being unfair in the current issue.”
That is certainly not consistent with how media/fans around the caribbean act in most controversies that pop up in West Indies cricket. In fact its the total opposite.
For example we have the continuous perception that Bravo & Pollard & other T20 regular players like Gayle, Narine, Simmons, Russel are mercenaries which is why they deserve limited sympathy for roles they played in India pull out.
However few people want to blame the WICB for being the terrible player relations negotiators
According to the caricom court of justice down on charlotte street – when Dinanath Ramnarine was president every time WIPA took WICB to court of players issues they LOST! – That is not perception or opinion – the law say that – so why does give WICB benefit of the doubt in these scandals over players & the current case of Simmons ?
Colin Benjamin, we are all well aware of the deficiencies of the past where the WICB is concerned, but I do believe that in recent years there has been a marked difference in its approach – not perfect, by any means, but significantly improved, in my opinion anyway. For one, the much improved relationship between the WICB and WIPA seems to have gone unnoticed.
But Gerard the players are abandoning WIPA. That puts the WICB at a worse position than before. Because a single body to discuss players’ grievances is as much a plus to the WICB as it is to the players.
Ha if Dinanath Ramnarine wasn’t alive I might suggest he would be close to be turning in his grave at what WIPA has become since Hinds took over since India tour saga.
So that’s a very weak example to highlight WICB improvement in player relations or whatever area.
Not only have all senior players abandoned WIPA – but they remain firm that new mou/cba that WICB/WIPA agreed to is terrible. We are indeed very lucky many more seniors have not followed elder Bravo and Simmons into test retirement because of it.
“The players are abandoning WIPA”? Nothing could be further from the truth, from what I understand. Because of the new CBA/MOU, scores of regional players are now able to earn a decent living from cricket, unlike past years when only a handful of them received the lion’s share of the spoils. It is a shame that sports journalists are unwilling to dig deeper into the new player arrangements and learn for themselves whether the changes are good or bad for our future.
What WIPA has become is a real inclusive bargaining agent for ALL first class cricketers in the Caribbean, rather than an exclusive agent for a few ‘marquee’ players. And that’s a good thing, in my opinion. We will see if that proves to be a positive development for future professional cricket. Give it time!
Gérard, you either clearly choose to mislead or you are not aware of the facts. Either way your comments are not reflective of the realities of WI cricket. However you asked that we give it some time. Hopefully as we give the time you are asking we can pay the 43 million USD we owe India, recover from the 10 million USD for Champions League we did not receive because the team did not qualify plus brace for another possible 40 million USD loss if India does not tour next year and don’t forget the 50 year agreement with CP HELL with little monetary value. How much time do you need again to make sure we are fully bankrupt.
It is my understanding that almost 95% the WI players left WIPA but what do I know.
Talking about misleading, Dinas? We don’t owe India a red cent as far as I’m concerned. You and I both know (even if only one of us is willing to admit it) that the previous CBA/MOU was a totally lopsided arrangement that was the result of the Board at the time being totally outsmarted by the then WIPA. Balance needed to be restored or else we would have faced the prospect of continuous disputes between players and the Board. I know that we will never agree on that, but that’s ok with me too. Everything has its season, and the former arrangements were perhaps necessary to redress the past imbalance of power between players and a Colonial Board. Its time has now passed though and a new arrangement is called for. As I keep saying, history will be the judge. For me, it’s time now that our team has arrived in Sri Lanka to Rally ’round the West Indies, now and forever!
Clearly you read the last CBA and MOU but did not understand the agreement or choose not understand it given the advice you may have given on this matter. The team could not have taken action unless they served a Notice of Dispute. Further the dispute resolution process outlined a manner in which disputes need to be handled hence the reason when the WICB breached we had no choice but to go to Arbitration. Under the agreement you advised the WICB to get rid would have protected them. You are absolutely wrong on this one.
You are also wrong about not owing India a red cent but of course you are entitled to your opinion. WICB sign an agreement with India and then the team walked out of the tour before it ended and in your opinion the BCCI has no claim. Of course, it’s your opinion, I just hope that the WICB hire good lawyers.
Of course they have a claim, nobody is disputing that, but a claim is not a debt eh. We will see whether the claim will be deemed legitimate in the fullness of time. Neither you nor I is a lawyer, unless bush lawyers count.
But, as I said, we will probably never agree on this as on many other issues. That’s life, my friend.
Well I believe India has a better claim against WICB than WICB has with Phil Simmons. Time will tell!!!
After the 1-1 Test series draw with England, where WI showed a determination which had been missing in the longer format in recent years, coupled with the recent statement by WICB that Holder would be fully supported in his role as Captain, I had been prematurely optimistic for this upcoming tour against an inexperienced SL side. As Lasana Liburd rightly said, conduct usually suggests you wait till after a matter is investigated before dishing out suspensions, and along with the recent announcement that WI will miss the ICC Champions Trophy, its dark days for a WICB that seems pre-historic in their rationale.
Coaches are at least as important and possibly more so Gerard Emile Zatopek Pinard. Some coaches have contracts that ensure no player can earn more.
Surely the wicb sees the value in Simmons which is why he was hired in the first place.
Why is he suddenly so unimportant to the team’s results?
Or is it that the Sri Lanka tour doesn’t really matter? That would be an odd signal to send to the team and the Sri Lankans.
Or is the WICB making it up as they go along and simply don’t know what they are doing or understand what their role should be for a successful cricket team?
Why do you conclude that he is considered unimportant? One of the major problems facing us in West Indies Cricket (and indeed the entire region) is a lack of discipline and professionalism. Surely we cannot continue accepting indiscipline if we hope to get anywhere near the pinnacle of world cricket again. I think Phil Simmons is a great coach and a fantastic person, but his public statements were indisciplined and unprofessional – and he has admitted as much. Do we ignore it and ‘move on’ or does it require some sort of action to ensure it is not repeated? Sometimes tough decisions need to be made if we are serious about excellence.
We have to start calling a spade a spade and treat with the issues objectively. We have a tendency though to be lax in our criticism of the Players while being at the other end of the spectrum where the Board is concerned. Admittedly, much of it has been deserved (give a dog a bad name) but too many of us are simply being unfair in the current issue.
I didn’t say forget and move on. But the WICB should be professional too.
I notice excerpts from Simmons’ apology are in the public domain. Who leaked that?
Did the WICB do the same thing it is accusing Simmons of for its own benefit?
Investigate Simmons actions and then act. Don’t act before the investigation.
Investigate the leak of Simmons’ apology.
And investigate, most of all, the allegation that the selection process of the West Indies cricket team.
Or is it that only the players and coaches are subject to codes of conduct and bound to behave professionally and the WICB can do as it pleases?
I note you don’t seem bothered by the allegations that the selection of the cricket team is being inappropriately interfered with.
Not that at I’m quarrelling with you eh Gerard Emile Zatopek Pinard. The exchange of opinions is good and it helps me understand the thinking of cricket officials.
I understand, Lasana Liburd, and I’m cool with the exchange of views. Perhaps you missed my posts which clearly indicated that a proper investigation should also be conducted into the allegations made by Coach Simmons.
And of course the Board is not exempt from scrutiny and an obligation to set and maintain disciplined and professional standards of behaviour – in fact, as some have said, they will not possess the moral authority to hold others accountable if they fail to do so.
I did miss those. Glad to hear it. Let me add that I mean an independent investigation done by people who are acceptable to both parties.
Good. I’m happy with that position Gerard Emile Zatopek Pinard ??
If we focus on the facts and the principles rather than the personalities or vested interests we are much more likely to get it right.
Well said Lasana. I agree 100% with your comments.
Here’s my thoughts on this controversy http://sports25guru.blogspot.com/
Gerard Emile Zatopek Pinard what you have just described is virtually indistinguishable from punishment in sport. So if that is what the WICB had in mind, then I am speechless because that would really suggest the cricket board is well out of touch and probably decades behind customary sport practice for such matters.
You see, you cannot give an athlete or coach a game back, even if you gave him a match fee. What if you used your suggested industrial relations practises and made Cristiano Ronaldo miss a Champions League final?
What happens in sport is you allow the player and coach to continue while the investigation is done. And you act after.
The WICB has already disrupted the team’s preparation by removing the coach from his job.
If that is not punishment then I think it will do.
In football, nobody is suspended until the matter is adjudicated. And, even then, a player or coach is allowed to appeal.
If the player appeals, most times the suspension will not be enforced and he will be allowed to play until his appeal is heard.
That is what sport considers acceptable industrial relations.
An Official is not the same as a Player eh.
Still Mr Pinard…Innocent until proven guilty. Dont you agree.
Mr. Rochford, that goes without saying. In this case there has been no determination of guilt – that will be done following the investigation and the disciplinary hearing.
The point is the coach cannot hamper WICB incestigation into his conduct, so why suspend him before the investigation is completed.
Good article on the whole saga came out today in UK:
http://www.alloutcricket.com/cricket/blogs/a-losing-game
The author, like many others, does not seem to know the difference between a disciplinary suspension and a non-punitive one pending an investigation into a matter.
Alvin Corneal wrote an article in yesterday’s Guardian which made reference to breach of protocol by Lloyd and someone else. His question was if breaches of protocol are subject to disciplinary action, why were the previous breaches not treated in like manner? Is it OK to breach protocol if you speak well of the WICB, but not OK if you do not praise them.
Regardless of when this matter is resolved, there needs to be an enquiry into the Simmons allegations.
Do we even know the nature of the charges, if any, that have been laid against Coach Simmons? As usual where the WICB is concerned, there is much talk and consternation based on little fact. I’d rather get the facts first before commenting. But that’s just me.
He was suspended. That much is fact. And that is what most people are commenting on.
Lasana, there is a huge difference between a disciplinary suspension and a non-punitive suspension on full pay while an investigation is underway.
And I agree Bruce, and investigation needs to be done in order to establish if there’s any truth to the allegations.
It is quite acceptable industrial relations practice to suspend a person (with full pay and benefits) while an investigation is carried out into an alleged infraction. Such a non-punitive suspension does not constitute a finding of guilt in relation to anything. After the investigation, depending on the facts unearthed, charges may be laid against the employee and a disciplinary hearing may be convened in order to allow him an opportunity to respond to said charges. It is only after the conclusion of such a hearing that appropriate disciplinary action may be considered necessary. Such disciplinary action could range from a Written Warning to a Disciplinary Suspension (without pay) to Termination.
Unfortunately, there has been much ventilation of opinion (even by those who know better, or at least ought to) on the mistaken premise that Coach Simmons has been disciplined. This is at best premature.
Gerard Emile Zatopek Pinard, what you have just described is virtually indistinguishable from punishment in sport. So if that is what the WICB had in mind, then I am speechless because that would really suggest the cricket board is well out of touch and probably decades behind customary sport practice for such matters.
You see, you cannot give an athlete or coach a game back, even if you gave him a match fee. What if you used your suggested industrial relations practises and made Cristiano Ronaldo miss a Champions League final?
What happens in sport is you allow the player and coach to continue while the investigation is done. And you act after.
The WICB has already disrupted the team’s preparation by removing the coach from his job.
If that is not punishment then I think it will do.
In football, nobody is suspended until the matter is adjudicated. And, even then, a player or coach is allowed to appeal.
If the player appeals, most times the suspension will not be enforced and he will be allowed to play until his appeal is heard.
That is what sport considers acceptable industrial relations.
Lasana, we will have to agree to disagree on that where an Official and not a player is concerned.
Lasana is quite correct. Pick any major sport and you will find that the players and coaches continue in their roles while the investigation is done. To do otherwise deprives the team of the services of the individuals which is a punishment while they are yet to be found guilty.
The industrial relations practice Gerard spoke of does not apply in sports. I would be very interested in hearing any example where this was not the case.
http://www.eurosport.co.uk/cricket/bangladesh-cricketer-shahadat-hossain-suspended-amid-claims-he-beat-and-tortured-child_sto4911311/story.shtml
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Pace-University-Football-Player-Captain-Suspended-Confederate-Flag-Nazi-Salute-326756471.html
http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/lilburn/2015/08/11/gwinnett-co-baseball-players-suspended-over-hazing-allegations/31489039/
http://fox13now.com/2015/09/09/two-volleyball-coaches-at-bountiful-high-suspended-in-wake-of-lawsuit-alleging-assault-and-battery/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2015/09/22/why-patrick-kane-should-attend-blackhawks-training-camp-amid-sexual-assault-allegations/
Interestingly, the Collective Bargaining Agreement of the National Hockey League provides that the league “may suspend the Player pending the League’s formal review and disposition of the matter where the failure to suspend the Player during this period would create a substantial risk of material harm to the legitimate interests and/or reputation of the League.”
There are many many instances in sport where non-punitive suspensions are effected pending investigation of an allegation.
Gerry, with all due respect can we really compare what Phil did, (and I am not condoning it,) to these examples you raised where violence, sexual assault and the like were involved?
Are there not rules of decent behavior with which leaders need to conform like telling the truth to the public??
How then can the President tell such lies to the public about not banning Reds Perreira, Tony Cozier and Mikey Holding from commentary of West Indies Cricket??
They are all on record as saying that they were banned.
Yet he tells the public that one cannot see, one not in good health and Mikey does not have time. I am a personal friend of all three and that they have been banned is the truth.
Should he not be suspended but ( non punitive of course ) while an investigation takes place???
Or is this not in the best interest of West Indies cricket.
Tell multiple LIES and this is OK.
Tell the truth, and you are out of place.
Answer me also about Alvin Corneal’s points.
Bruce, as far as I am concerned we are dealing with a single issue here. Of course there are others to be addressed and they should be dealt with, but let’s not flip flop all over the place. Your argument is starting to resemble your logic in defending the past PP government in the face of massive corruption simply because of your bitterness towards their opponents. Could it be that your obvious personal animosity towards the WICB President is clouding your judgment? My recollection is that he was recently re-elected for another term based on the support of the vast majority of the Territorial Boards. Or is it, like that other political battle, that the losers still cannot accept the will of the majority?
Gerard,
You should be on the dance floor with your beautiful wife. You dance so well around the issues. You focus on those before us, but not on those that caused them.
An HR consultant and an Independent HR practitioner are poles apart.
I have not defended the previous government, and people who know me well can tell you my independent position. What I defended at times was the unfair attack by people who blamed the government for things over which the government had no control.
My personal animosity towards the present WICB President is founded on FACT. And you should know that facts are stubborn things.
As regards his support of the majority boards, tell me a few things.
How did he get the Jamaican support???????
Why was the delegate of St.Vincent in accordance with the Windward Islands Board arrangement replaced by Lockhart Sebastien a Dominican employed by the W.I Board to vote in favor.
How you get the Guyana vote???? Give Lloyd a big job.
You are someone who I thought was independent, but your LOVE of the PNM and support of Cameron causes me concern.
Hope you are not advising on any WICB MATTERS.
But I do not expect that you are.
Bruce, you are right in that facts are a stubborn thing eh. And you have so many of them wrong….Firstly, I am single and so have no beautiful wife to dance with, unlike you (lucky man). Secondly, I have no ‘LOVE’ for the PNM (or any political party, for that matter) but I do have an abiding contempt for corruption and the former government that you so liked to defend was the worst I have ever experienced in that regard. So, please don’t be too concerned about me and my independence just because I don’t agree with you on some issues. After all, you can’t always be right, ent? As for advising the WICB, or any other client that requests my professional services, I would be happy to do so whenever asked, and always to the best of my ability and in accordance with my personal code of ethics and professionalism. I’m sure you would appreciate that.
Now leave mih alone and let me go to bed – ah have a full day tomorrow. Good night!
Another dance. Stop ducking and answer the questions I asked. Or can you not. You have this tendency to attack with alacrity and gay abandon, but once put on the spot you go to sleep.
That is what I love about consultants. Never face the real world. Like lawyers work for whoever pays. Me? I cannot do that. I tell you like it is. You do not like it? As Beenhaker used to say have a nice day and FO.
Bruce, why do you feel that I have to answer any of your dotish questions rather than stay on topic? And don’t bother trying to bait me with snide barbs against consultants eh, because in our case we are usually called in when the HR ‘experts’ in the ‘real world’ have made a mess of things (I remember one funny story when a big HR boss at a regional financial institution recruited a very senior HR Executive from abroad who turned out to be a total fraud – only discovered by one of those external HR consultants). Good thing eh, or even more egg would have been on many faces. Luckily for me I have had the opportunity to work both inside and outside of your ‘real world’ and have some really good stories from both sides of the fence.
And, finally, Bruce, as your other good pardna used to say…I might answer all those questions you asked eh…but not tonight! Or, if you really need them answered tonight, ask yuh mudder! Lol and good night?
Nice duck again. Stay under the cover and out of trouble. But rest assured we will get you friend.
As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, “Who ‘we’, paleface?”
Bruce is he getting personal now? Par for the course. I see you mentioned his love of the PNM…seems he loves all sides…thats how he has managed to talk so much crap. I guess he has to eat anyhow.
Just to put the record straight, it was NOT the HR boss that hired that person, it was done by the HR committee of the Holding Co. board. It was also no brilliant HR consultant who uncovered the fraud, but the system to check the credentials of such people that were instituted by the H.R. Boss.
Once again your facts are as straight as a corkscrew. And we agree on one thing, ALL questions you cannot answer on EVERY subject are dotish. At least you are consistent in that.
Hahaha…seems like ah mash yuh corn. Doh worry, all ah we does screw up eh. Btw, there are millions of questions that I can’t answer eh.
Gerard – you quoted examples from amateur sports and the others were accused of committing serious criminal acts. None of these are even close to the example we are dealing with here unless you are equating being sought by the police for assault with Simmons’ breach of protocol.
Interestingly, in your last example, the team did not suspend the player from training camp despite being a subject of a criminal investigation. Perhaps you missed that part?
And in regards to your NHL example, that is clearly written with regards to players committing acts that threaten the league as a commercial enterprise. I doubt speaking out of turn would qualify on that basis.
Kendall, I was merely pointing out that such non-punitive suspensions do in fact occur in sports, especially where the team, league or the game itself may have been brought into disrepute. A simple google search threw up several instances, so I gave you a sample as requested.
Gerry, I have no corns for you to mash so do not worry yourself.
My conscience is clear and my heart is pure. I answer any question to the best of my knowledge and given the info that I have. I do not duck and run.
It wasn’t a relevant sample Gerard Emile Zatopek Pinard. Surely you can see that Simmons absence from the team is a punishment for the coach and the players. It cannot be interpreted any other way.
Lasana, the sample was just that, a sample. The point is that non-punitive suspensions are indeed quite commonplace in sports as elsewhere. I would imagine that the duration of the suspension would determine whether it could really be deemed to be punitive or not. I also imagine that the Board would have weighed the potential damage of having the Coach continue to operate despite his unfortunate comments versus the potential of his suspension being deemed to be punitive in nature. A tough call, to be sure.
And we also ought to consider the impact of the public comments on the reputation and character of the Selectors who were accused of being influenced by external factors. And then there are the players who were selected, who might well be pondering whether they were chosen on merit based on the allegations. It’s not all about one man by any means.
Bruce, you still trying to get me to join you in a trolling exercise? I am dealing with the subject matter of the thread and have neither the time nor the inclination to join you on a frolic of your own – if you consider that ducking and running, that’s cool with me. But I am the only one who dictates my priorities these days, whether anybody else likes it or not.
So if I put a subject matter as ” Can anyone tell me why
THE PRESIDENT OF THE WICB CONTINUES TO BE A STRANGER TO THE TRUTH IN HIS COTTAGE MEETINGS”
You might have the time or the inclination to discuss? Or will your priorities, that only you set not allow you to do so.
Just asking.
Bruce, that would be what we HR folks call a leading question. You know, like if I were to ask you whether you still beat your lovely wife. The fact that you continue to make allegations of all kinds against the President does not by itself lend any credence to same. If you recall, all sorts of allegations were also made about your own performance and conduct as CEO of the Board, which did not mean that such allegations were credible or true. Ent?
Remember, “he who alleges must prove”.
Well Cozier, Holding and Perreira all lie so it remains allegations.
As for allegations against me? Let them prove it. I have lots of proof about many of them. Go back and read my resignation.
And by the way leave my wife out of your nasty comments. Throwing that on this site is to set people thinking. And a disgrace. Did not think you would do something like that when you know better. Have a nice day.
That’s my point, Bruce. Allegations are just that, allegations. You continue to make what I consider to be scandalous allegations of your own against Dave Cameron without offering a shred of proof in support of same. But that’s between you, him and the admins of this group.
Bruce, you clearly missed my point. The classic example quoted of a leading question is “do you still beat your wife?” Surely you know this, so please don’t think that it was directed against you personally – if you did, I apologize unreservedly.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html
Gerry I hope that the WICB will do the right thing and allow due process in this matter and more importantly an independent committee to investigate the serious allegations made by Phil. I am not holding my breath but my experience is the Board will appoint themselves or people close to them. I hope this time it is different.
Dinas, I agree with Gerard. Let’s wait and see what happens rather than pass premature judgement. My gut has a very firm opinion on how it will all turn out but I’m willing to give them a chance to prove my gut – and yours, Dinas – wrong.
Let’s see.
Simmons has done the right thing by apologizing for his intemperate remarks. Hopefully, the Board will respond leniently and investigate whether there was any basis for his concerns.
I am not sure they are “anti-Trini” as much as they are egotistical, retaliatory, and possibly dictatorial.
The TTCB were heading in the anti-trini angle especially with the removal of the two captains
Just think they want to censor or bring punitive action against anyone who speaks up against them e.g. Gayle.. just my opinion..
Well Simmons has today apologised for making, what he calls, a ”schoolboy error” in speaking out against selection policy. Seems that unless he said he made such an ”error”, he would have been sacked by WICB
He apologised for the manner of his outburst. It should have been handled more professionally ie in business, you write a letter first then based on the response you submit an offer to resign because you can’t work under those conditions…then you make the outburst publicly
He has sealed his own fate with that apology.
Did they fire him?
The WICB is canny with their politics. By selecting Jason Mohammed and Samuel Badree,re-calling Ravi and Narine and keeping Bravo and Pollard for T20’s, they making it hard to imply there is an anti-trini agenda in place
OMG we need to stand up for SIMMO with the stand he has taken but like he had a premature ejaculation with that stan alluh hear that apology is the worst need some VIAGRA SIMMO like you are unable to maintain the STAND for long what ah shame have no problem with the apology if you mis-spoke in breach of protocol but to berate your self so its like throwing your self to the wolves that is not a true description of yourself so now we all wonder who or what made you choose those words
What is also apparent is the shameless discrimination against Trinidadians,even during the glory days. It is inconceivable that Eldine Baptiste played more Test matches than Tony Gray. Yet Baptiste played ten test matches and Gray only played five. Brian Lara should have been playing since 1989, but he was constantly beaten to it(Viv Richards’ explanation) by Keith Atherton, Carlisle Best,players of grossly inferior talents. Ian Bishop was a fast bowling phenomenon when legends were retiring so he had no problem. The logistics and bureaucracy of going it alone are ginormous and quite frankly, very intimidating. But I think it is an avenue worth taking a serious look at, at the very least. Trinidad as seen by the regional tournaments(do not mention the four day, because it is totally unacceptable that the test team is chosen in part by a six match per team long tournament where most top players cannot play in because of WI or test commitments) is producing players. The rest of islands with the exception of Barbados are not. The quality of many of the Bajan players is yet to be determined also. The price of oil realistically can’t stay down forever. We are the only team that can put in place a proper cricketing structure, a team, an academy and stadiums.