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Corporal punishment was removed from schools over 15 years ago and there seemed to be a strong moral argument to abolish “violence” against children. But should that not mean young people—at least below the ages of 23—ought to be significantly less violent?
Whether or not you believe that abolishing corporal punishment was the just and right thing to do—and we agreed—what benefits should we be seeing now as a society? Should there be a tangible societal benefit to being less aggressive with our children? And is that evident now?
Please join our discussion on the topic:
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There is also a link between the amt of male school teachers within the school system and the indicipline we now see . That to has to be considered .
That one needs data too. Lol. But it would be interesting. We would then have to consider have that might affect the attitude of young men to the opposite sex on the whole.
Lasana Liburd We know there are alot of young men who have no respect for female teachers .
http://www.newsday.co.tt/news/0,3031.html
Jimi Jorsling…If we identify that as an issue since 2009 as articulated in letter to editor, and suspecting more females apply for teaching than makes-since more of us go on to tertiary education, what has the MoE done to attract male teachers? If they are more inclined to science, do we provide better labs? How are we actively recruiting male teachers?
That was brought up as an issue by a former Education Minister but no one has said what accounted for the drop in male applicants for teaching positions within recent years . A good question for the present adminstration to answer
But even so, there are male applicants in the system. Their applications can be fast tracked once they are available for subject areas that have vacancies. It is just a matter of being pro-active.
Jimi Jorsling : “We know there are a lot of young men who have no respect for female teachers .”
WOW . i wonder if that relates to male violence against women, about hyper and toxic masculinity, about the way males interact with females and women???
who here realizes that casual statement that is very true indicates how early people are socialized to behave a certain way.
And do we not miss a salient piece in all of this. That violence is about who and how we see potential victims, the proverbial monkey know what tree to climb??
and how many males insist that young boys respect women, females, teachers, …
If i keep going we will get to see how men, all the good ones who so think they are, have silently watched and compliantly participated in the disrespect of women. and girls nad the female form and frame.
from that phrase Jimi writes we should ask. Oh? How? Why? What?? and go down the rabbit hole from there
It’s quite possible that the simultaneous easy and unfiltered access kids got to cable television around the time corporal punishment was stopped may have minimize the positive outcome that should have been achieved.
Point.
In my days at St. George’s College, the Principal walked the corridors with his whip…not a man dare peep outside his/her classroom..
But that was in the 70s and 80s…
Assuming it was legal (some say it is illegal), for a principal to administer cp today, that principal could face.serious reprisals…from the parents or friends of that student…
I remember deans who did the same at CIC.
At When I did A’Levels we had Downer at St. Augustine Senior Comp. some of the children there were deemed troublesome and bad, but majority dare not tangle with him, those that did.. well let’s just say we had visits from the police when those episodes occurred and the Dean was a short, little Chinese man, he too they feared. All he had to do was come out his office at the front of the school and the corridors in the back and all became a ghost town. He commanded respect. I don’t agree with the whip, but there must be some sort of disciplinary action that the principal and teachers could take
Earlier this month, I was walking down Maraval Road and a mother and daughter were on their way to Newtown Girls. A whistle blew on the school’s compound and the mother continued walking while the girl halted abruptly and said “Mummy” and the mother immediately stopped. She was about eight years old and I looked around after I passed and both of them were standing at attention on the pavement outside the school. I assume that the child was obeying an instruction which was a very pleasant surprise. There must be a way to restore respect and discipline in the nation’s schools and all actions must have consequences at all ages.
I think children generally start off respecting teachers. I’m not sure how the respect is eroded after.
I’d never ill-speak teachers in front of children, even if I think the teacher was wrong. Not unless we are talking about a matter of safety.
Parents HAVE to take.control of their children from DAY ONE..now the children control parents..
As a secondary school teacher myself, like many schools, there is a parents day in.which students, parents and teachers discuss poor academic performance..
Some of the stories I hear from the.parents….very challenging to keep their sons on track..
I’d like to believe that, in scientific terms, you can measure anything. You just need the right formula. If we beat children in the hundreds of thousands before and we now beat them in the thousands, then would we not be able to measure the benefits of that somehow?
I believe we can, it’d just be a complex formula because we have to consider so many things.
Beatings, Exposure to other forms of violence and abuse, the feeling of hope, levels of autonomy, ability to shape their own destiny, religious influence, yada yada yada.
I agree with you there.
I would say that the violence in school is just one part of the problem.
Many children are still violently beaten at home, and verbally abused as well. More beatings do correlate to more violent children, but the anger and frustration in our society comes from children who are not respected, and not listened to.
And my response is the same to you there Renee. This isn’t a thread about bringing corporal punishment back. But rather a look at where we are going.
Some say we should scale back. Some say we should go further. All made points either way.
I’m with Keston K. Perry on this one!
Sorry Lasana I’m not going to join this discussion. I anticipate getting annoyed quickly. This is a fictitious correlation btw. But good luck!
Lol. You sure your correlation isn’t fictious? What I asked was whether we should have a less violent school population as a result of the end of corporal punishment.
You must be assuming I was making some other point.
Lasana, you made a correlation by inferring that ending CP should/would lead to a less violent society. Perhaps you inadvertently made a correlation without realising that is what it’s called. I don’t like discussing simple formulae relative to complex concerns. But anyway ah gone. X
Well, I was under the impression that this was partly the point. The whole violence begets violence theory, which sounds feasible enough. I thought that correlation was always there.
Cheers Keston.
Corporal punishment may have ended in schools but not in the home… Plus, children are subjected to violence on TV, the music they listen to, social media, etc.
I wager we don’t even know and understand where this idea of beating children to enforce discipline and obedience comes from and why we need to stop practicing this torture of defenseless children.
The conversation is not about finding ways to beat children though. Just about considering the gains of things put in place: Is it working? Why not? Or how can it work better? Are we sure we were right to begin with?
Nothing should be above scrutiny. No sacred cows. You have to believe that everything you think is right can be logically justified.
It is easy to assume people have an agenda and are aiming to do something unpleasant. But sometimes we are just discussing things and considering how to create a better society.
I recognize your musing.. Not assuming anything….those are just some of my observations. It’s a complex issue and I’m barely scratching the surface here. There’s a plethora of things we need to do as a society that can’t be legislated or imposed, in order for us to change. We have to want to change for the better.
Was removing Corporal punishment from schools the right thing to do? Yes. But in the absence of further guidance and guidelines on enforcing discipline, a vacuum developed. Nature abhors same and something filled it. We also failed to address other contributing issues such as parental indiscipline, neglect, domestic violence, children’s access to inappropriate material, our general lack of knowledge and immaturity, our reticence about reading, viewing children as property and without rights, general indiscipline and pervasive violence in society, erosion of values and morals, etc.
I wonder what filled that vacuum though. What do teachers do now Peter Joseph? Some of those things at home are hard to legislate for. But the Govt can try to reach parents through campaigns on parenting if they really believe that would make us a better society.
What filled it? Well, predators that prey on children don’t only do so for sex. Neglect filled the void. We bred contempt as well when people forgot the difference between entitlement and eligibility. We also assume every woman is cut out to be a mother and they want to be a parent. We don’t actually teach people to be parents too…. We became more materialistic and the Barrel Child Syndrome bred cold, acquisitive, impatient and angry adults. We keep selling this myth that children aren’t good enough because they come from a single female home or their fathers are irresponsible and unavailable so we’ve filled the void with low self esteem. We don’t encourage rational, analytical thought, conflict resolution and reading so we have children and adults that only think and react on a more primitive emotional level; the amygdala hijack is the normal mode of operation. We left children to take themselves to and from school even at the age of 5, and mind themselves at home alone and we left the TV and radio and Internet to babysit…. Lots of things have filled the void really….
I think low self esteem runs deep throughout the country though. Regardless of class or the number of parents in the house.
Same for the lack of analysis.
I just tied those into our colonial upbringing. Not convinced that the schools had anything to do with those two.
I certainly agree that all those things are problems for our society.
Yes. That low self esteem is at the root of our general apathy and our tendency to await a messianic hero to rescue us from ourselves…. Many days I ask myself why i’m here you know… It’s extremely tiring trying to wake people up!
Wish I knew the answer to that. When I thought about starting a website that turned out to be Wired868, my idea was to create something that could provoke thought.
I wanted to start intelligent conversation and to give people the information they need to have the talks that we need to have as a country.
I can only hope that those talks then lead somewhere.
I really appreciate some of the people who contribute to our discussions. Maybe these talks can help plant a seed and give an alternate viewpoint.
My hope is that for every chat, there might be someone who reads without contributing who got something worth musing over.
That’s why I say no sacred cows. We should be able to justify everything with logic.
Agreed.
Lasana to answer you the short way….we have in place something called the disciplinary matrix. It involves:
Keeping records of student behavior
Looking for patterns in said behavior
Reporting patterns to immediate supervisor(H. O. D).
Warning…
Letters to parents
Meetings with parents
Principal intervention
It follows that pattern
Strategies like lines, standing in a corner can be done within reason but excessive use is deemed cruel. I know of a teacher being disciplined for gently tapping on a child’s shoulders (as teacher passes down aisle) and saying “hurry up”. Parents complained that the child was abused.
Alana I’m not au courant with ‘smiley face ‘ usage. What’s the meaning of the one you used?
Rolled my eyes at the abuse claims…. Some parents are their children’s own worst enemy…..
Thing is….I’ve personally received letters from many parents ‘giving me permission ‘ to buss tail.. I politely decline….I have bills to pay
One simply need ask whether corporal punishment was the prime contributing factor to a culture of violence among youth or one research proven contributing factor .. you being naughty now Lasana
Lol. We have had some excellent comments on that from teachers Karry. Many believe we should have done more.
I think for us to go beyond that we have got to show some evidence of improvement or at least paint a picture to show how these changes can lead to a better society.
I’m actually NOT saying we should bring back corporal punishment. Although I do find it interesting that we still see such aggressive behaviour from students, particularly when aimed at authority figures who they would have cowered before in the past.
Cuase they are being beaten at home and exposed to that violence elsewhere. Students do not exist in a bubble
That point was raised several times Rachael. And of course that’s true.
But it is fact that there is less licks now if only a couple schools in the country stopped. Are you saying that stopping it in schools was a waste of time?
Correlation does not always mean causation. If you remove one form of discipline in school without adequately replacing it with another then, of course, we are going to have problems. We have such regressive ideas education and discipline. We don’t even have sufficient student therapy, academic guidance, sex education or learning disability assistance to deal with the many social issues. Some of these students have an unhealthy home environment. They grow up in dangerous and abusive homes or neglectful ones. But sure let’s just look at the only surface issues instead of dealing with the fact that we are not taking proper care of our children both in and outside of the classrooms.
So I take it you mean that act didn’t go far enough. But for people to accept change, the government needs to explain how change will better our lives and/or society.
What I’m trying to work out is–if we are aiming for a less violent society–what might help us to get there as far as raising our children goes?
As far as I see it this country needs mass therapy to deal with all the trauma we are inflicting on each other.
Lasana Liburd: education programmes for parents, first and foremost, but that has to be done in a much broader context — economic, political, social and otherwise. We must talk. 🙂 I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about this.
Hahah. I doubt anyone can argue with you there Rachael. We are an abused people.
And anytime Janine. I’d love a Letter to the Editor on the topic from ya anytime too. 😉
LOL!
Yes..i was.
Were you guys spanked in elementary school?
elementary, primary and secondary. Teachers had pet names for their leather straps/metal rulers.
And not you Vernal? While you were here
Haha. Yeah. Remember Mr Rajah, Spencer? Lawd.
Yes they did, which speaks volumes Spencer.
Now do you remember the preferred games played at recess?
Spencer elementary, primary, secondary and when yuh reach home!
Now that explains why I hated school! Lol. But to be fair, it was only in primary school.
Yes, I was punished in primary school. Standard 3 ‘was de worst’. Mrs. Bynoe used to cut our tail with a handbroom…The heavy ones…not like the ones they make today. In Standard 4, Mr. Sieunarine (think I spelled it wrong) used a stick. Mr. Lackhai used a strap and used to call us jackarse when we were in Standard 5. Oh, Mrs. Thompson, the Standard 1 A teacher, used to pinch us. Boss, I swear that teacher used to make me levitate with one of her pinches….lol
not more than twice in primary, ’cause there was a threat of humiliation hanging over my head, once in secondary.
Do you guys also recall your games at recess being violent?
No^^^
I attended San Fernando Boys RC in the 70s and I don’t know which wasnore violent inside or outside class.
It seemed to me that the violence of the teachers were reflected in the students.
I was beaten (“spanked” is too genteel a term) in primary school — and I was a good student, so it was nothing more than an abuse of authority; a flexing of muscles. I knew that even at that young age, and I resented it. Maybe that’s one of the reasons I tend to be a peacemaker and believe in the power of communication to resolve conflict.
I remember one French teacher who never ever beat. But he would cut you down with his remarks.
One of his famous send-offs when he threw you out of class was: You damn ram goat… Go and graze in the pastures!
Vernal I only get violent when I get big ..lol
Well my personal experience is in no way a scientific study eh, but I can argue that neither were Rowley’s or Williams when they said “Pick better man” and “We need divine intervention”!
primary school games were violent, scootch (dodge ball ?) and jump kicks, pulling out chairs before ppl could sit, there was bullying too.
I forgot scootch yes. Poor me, I didn’t have a great throwing arm… 🙁
Remember playing Mammy … which was basically ketch with a belt?
Remember Cabbage?
Hahahaha. Nope! Mammy sounds like a San Fernando game Vernal. And “cabbage”?! Good grief. You all had recess with Queen Elizabeth?! Hahaha
After being brutalized by teachers in the classroom we took it out on each other in the school yard.
And Love and Kisses in secondary school….which was a variation on Cabbage and a precursor to sexual assault! LOL
No wonder 99 percent of those halfway homes for illegal Latinas are in south Trinidad yes Vernal!
It’s all connected
ketch and doh tell was one game they warned us about, never got invited to play. this was primary school
So wait…sexual harassment was taught in schools…albeit as an ‘extra curricular’ activity? Lol.
Yeah
“cabbage” iz ah Princez Tung ting?
You still feel Priztung start just south ah Grand Bazaar yuh know?
You forget I get lost in Priztung not too long ago owah
Mel Lissa…wait..waze doesn’t work in south? Lol…And btw..I found out u can use it for walking as well as driving! (Well, depends on how far u going)
lolol..I have no idea Nerisha
I’ll try it next time
Doh bother with Mel … she might still be in Matilda all now and doh know!
lolol
Lasana Liburd is he self i was thinking of… serious strap
The threat or implementation of a good cutarse has saved many so i do not discount its value……but when do you say it is abuse???
I think that has some merit. Eh Keith Look Loy? Because sometimes it is abuse.
But it feels like a retrograde step to consider using that again.
My dad never gave us a spanking when he was angry…and we always knew why we were getting punished. I think what is wrong is when parents grab up the first thing that comes to hand, be it a pot spoon, a TV antenna (back in the day), a piece ‘ah stick’ and start to ‘give yuh blows fuh so.’ At the end of the day, sometimes the children don’t even know why they were punished in the first place.
..Nobody should abuse anyone. But a good cut arse goes a long way sometimes man..
The threat of a spanking, even if it was never inflicted, was always a deterrent. Now that the threat is no longer there the measures now will nvr hv the same effect.
Desperate times call for drastic measures. Plain talk is that some children deserve a good cut arse. Not to the point of injury though.
Can’t say and will not proffer/hazard a guess.Simply put ,we need to address roles of parenting,child rearing,teaching and adherence to basic tenets of values and reinforcement of same.
Once we can agree on those “basic tenets of values” of course. 😉
Well, let’s start with a little kindness.
I think kindness and corporal punishment might not be mutually exclusive.
So, why isn’t there a formal citizenship course? You are granted citizenship because you are born here. But with your religious upbringing, despite our cultural norms, you believe that children can be married off. We can be a tolerant society, but shouldn’t there be a more formal way to establish what are our social norms? Things like courtesy-playing loud music to disturb neighbours-why do police have to get involved? Obscene language in public, even when children are present? What discourages such behaviour now? And what encourages such behaviour now, when 20 years ago ppl would not even think to do such things?
let’s start with manners: Good morning. Good afternoon. Please. Thank you. Excuse me. I am sorry. What did you say. I beg your pardon. etc etc. you see it readily in those children who have been properly trained. They are not saints but you readily see that their parents have had some positive influence over them and the parents don’t have to be present for that to happen.
I actually thought those days died but I was walking in POS a couple years ago when a young schoolboy passed and said…’coz morning’ I was so shocked it took me a minute to respond lol…And there was nobody else on the street. But yup, basic etiquette like these, when children are borough up in homes where they do not get such training-they should pick up the cues from school etc. We see when some ppl come into the workplace and ppl comment that person has no ‘broughtupsy’.
what? no, these children need licks! back in our day yuh getting licks from everybody and we want back the ole’ time days
Ian Brooks was there an aim we were working on when we abolished corporal punishment? Or were we just copying other nations?
That might give us a clue as to what went wrong with that plan.
It might seem like splitting hairs but schooling and education are NOT, emphatically not, the same thing. And it seems self-evident that education is much broader, much larger, much more all-encompassing than schooling.
So if we remove corporal punishment from schools and leave it untouched in the wider society, have we advanced the game? After all, it may not be true any longer that the village educates the child but, from where i stand, it certainly is true that the global village is mis-educating the country’s children.
So then the benefit to ending corporal punishment in school is negligible?
I don’t know (in fact I doubt) if any studies have been conducted into the factors leading to lawlessness in T&T, but studies done elsewhere suggest strongly that corporal punishment actually incrrases the likelihood of the development of violent tendencies.
It is natural to look for a magic bean that would grow all the solutions to society’s problems, but the fact is many things contribute to the development of violent tendencies and dealing with them firsts requires study and we eh doing dat.
This is an excellent point here Janine and Reay.
This is why we end up with bull shit solutions like “Pray fuh divine intervention” and “Pick better man”
If we can’t hang anybody, little Johnny’s arse might be on the line. Adults will want someone to vent on soon I think. :-/
UNDP did a study a few years ago….google it.
What were the findings?
The point should be, corporal punishment is not a panacea for indiscipline. But at the same time, while not being the first recourse, it should not be ruled out! And you all recall it’s also a punishment in the legal system? Strokes?
No …. Pavlov theory says no??
Oh losh. Now I’d love to hear Pavlov theory applied here! 🙂
Ha ha ha …. he dead
The opposite happened because it was removed with no alternative plan for disciplining young ppl…so we reaping the results of poor planning now
That might well be so. I wonder if they specifically stated what ills we were trying to cure. That would have told us what else we needed to do.
Unless we merely abolished it because other countries did…
I’m sure it was just done because it sounded good politically without any real deep thought or purpose
Corporal punishment should have been removed but nothing was put in place to replace it.
But….The lack or Corporal punishment isn’t the reason we are where we are. That is a “misnomer” for those who remotely believe such.
Nigel, I feel like first we have to assess how it has been working out for us. And then to consider why it hasn’t been working or how it should work better.
This isn’t necessarily about bringing corporal punishment back. Personally I’d be against reintroducing it.
But I feel like we should always be prepared to examine the impact of legislation over a certain period of time to determine if we achieved what we set out to achieve.
As i told a teacher at school the other day…it eh coming back…never will and it cant…too late..
It definitely didnt achieve…it aided in easier deterioration of disciplinary standards
I don’t think anyone wants it back the problem is implementation of an alternative way to achieve discipline…we removed it without any objective really besides the knowledge that it was the wrong approach…and while it was wrong we needed to define what was right and measure the results
Unfortunately it seems as if we made a bad situation even worse
And that’s precisely what we should do as a matter of course for ALL legislation. Check after a certain period of time to see what the effects are and what needs remedying.
They said that it was part of a loan agreement with the IMF by the then government
i want it back …to be honest it never stopped at my home
I don’t believe it’s good but ppl have to be retrained to know how to discipline children in other ways…many ppl only know that method so they can’t administer anything else…and in the absence of that all hell breaks loose
Good point…suspensions are making little impact…
NOPE… As with everything else was it done properly, with a proper implementation strategy put in place to deal with and mitigate the fall out… NOPE.. so what we expect.
I wonder what the problem was that we were trying to fix then. That might give us a better clue as to if it was done properly.
And surely we should have some way of assessing it after all these years. So we will know if we need to go further and ban corporal punishment in homes, for instance.
Was there a problem or were we just trying to as usual follow an American system, to your point, quick to end without foresight and planning,
And so leaving teachers and school administrators in limbo not knowing what was accepted as proper disciplinary procedure, the bad behaviour in school sky rocketed, today even in primary school. A a parent, moreso of boys I constantly meet with my children teachers, with them present so they are quite aware of what I have given permission to and what I expect to be proper behaviour and what the consequences would be in school and at home. Growing up in a time when a cut tail was normal , I rarely put into practice this type of correction, but they are quite aware that there are dire consequences for improper behaviour by the removal of the things they love to do (with the exception of extra curricular activities like football, baskeball etc..) Teachers are in a quandry with sometimes no help and correction in behaviour and attitude from home. I know there are other reasons, but the majority is just lack of parenting and the need to be a friend more than a parent.
Well, if we didn’t know why we were implementing it then it is no wonder that it hasn’t worked. I’m still assuming that the intention was to have a less violent society.
I’m not sure if it was just on moral grounds in that it is child abuse to beat someone more vulnerable than you and in your care.
Anyone remembers who the minister of education at the time was?. You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.
Think about it. Your child has picked up the bad habit of stealing little things around the house. You tell him/her that if s/he didn’t ask for permission to get whatever it was, then what s/he did is called stealing. S/he does it again and again and again…and your form of correction gets a bit sterner with each infraction..whether it is scolding, withholding privileges, grounding or whatever you deem appropriate. What would you do if your child starts stealing other kids’ belongings? Their pencils? Pens? Whatever? Especially if s/he has all his/her mental faculties and has the ability to reason things out. I think that there’s nothing wrong with giving that child 2-3 strokes on his/her behind. The point is, spanking is the last resort. This isn’t about being violent. This is about raising your child in the way s/he should go. And there’s scripture to support this claim: Proverbs 13:24 (NIV) – “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them… ” although I’m sure there are Biblical scholars who’d say that my interpretation is erroneous.
?
Exactly! Reinforcement! Reward good behaviour, punish bad behaviour. Anybody recall a time when only a cut eye was enough to stop you in your tracks? From young, listen to how children speak to adults. We try too much to be friend. And that behaviour is reinforced in the tv shows geared for children.
Nerisha Mohammed You hit the nail on the head!!!! Agree 100%!!!
Scientific proof: http://www.upworthy.com/the-science-of-spanking-what-happens-to-some-spanked-kids-when-they-grow-up?g=2&c=ufb7
Janine Mendes-Franco An interesting study….But the investigator (Gershoff) also cautions that “her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents’ self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.” (SOURCE: http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx)
Yes, I saw that — but who defines abuse? Who draws the line? Better to avoid it entirely. How can we be enraged about domestic violence, but cool with doling out “a good cut arse”? And when those same men who were “disciplined” that way as children start running amok, we wonder why. I’m not saying we need to be welcome mats, but we must approach this issue differently if we want to see lasting change.
The reality is that the statistics show more negative long-term effects from corporal punishment that not. The brain being to wire itself differently, particularly if this approach has been used from a tender age.
Janine Mendes-Franco Don’t think 2-3 strokes on the behind as the very last resort, after all other methods failed, will do harm. It’s not something I would advocate that a parent does as soon as a child disobeys. Noooooo….That would be bordering on being abusive. Failure to wash the dishes, though an act of disobedience, doesn’t merit being spanked (IMHO)…But stealing, for example, after repeated warnings…and other lesser forms of punishment like withholding privileges, grounding, and what have you…may be one of the reasons why I think a child should be spanked. Isn’t that better than calling the child a jackarse? Hardened? Or saying something more hurtful? Though the wounds from 2-3 strokes on the derriere will heal in minutes, the scars from a hurtful word last a lifetime…So let’s agree, to disagree…
Shay, I believe in natural consequences and in communication. We’ll agree to disagree — for me, though, corporal punishment breaks a bond of trust. I personally cannot tell a child that I expect better of him or her when I resort to violence to make that point. If I do that, I cannot later be outraged at teacups being pelted in parliament, etc. 🙂
That is not the only factor, there are many, many interlocking reasons for juvenile crime
Of course that might not be down to corporal punishment at all. But it is ironic.
You see students scuffling with police officers these days. Did that always happen but we just didn’t have smart phones to video tape it?
Or do children have more aggressive behaviour to authority figures now too?
Can you really imagine 20 years ago a school child doing that? Trust, those were the days of some ‘badjohn’ police officers lol. They were taking you home for your parents to finish beating you lol.
Thing is I know some stuff like sexual assualts, for instance, always happened. That isn’t new. But I really can’t remember students attacking police much in the past. If at all. But maybe someone can correct me.
If we’re talking about the same video, Lasana, I saw it and it comes down to communication. The officers may have been well intentioned, but the girl was in panic mode because she felt she wasn’t doing anything wrong — and they weren’t explaining anything to her. Put that in the context of lack of public trust in the police and you can start to understand her distress. Then the officers pulled rank and started to deride her, which escalated everything. Could the whole scene have been avoided if the girl was approached differently? We need to change our approach and foster more understanding. We only fear the things we don’t understand. And what of the prison system? Do we think the jails will be big enough to hold everybody, or might we start looking at restorative justice? As a friend was asking the other day on FB, if we are an empathetic nation, does that mean empathy towards some or all? We’re all in this together. it’s time we acted like it.
There have actually been many videos like that in recent times Janine. But I’d say we were all unfairly treated by people in authority during our days as children.
It was extremely rare in my days to see such a reaction to an authority figure: be it teacher or policeman.
I agree that this might have nothing to do with corporal punishment. But there is some irony if students are now displaying more aggression towards authority figures.
Not that I can prove it with hard evidence.
Well, back then, children knew to be children they were to be seen and not heard; we did not know about ‘rights’ then lol.
..Licks doh kill and licks does cool. Well administered, the threat is more weighty than the act itself..
Steups. Exactly! Most of us remember the sight of a belt or something causing enough fear to make you think twice about what you doing. Sometimes that was worse than the licks! Lol
‘licks doh kill’? I know of some dearly departed ones who would say differently
..LIICKS. Not abuse..
“Spare the rod and spoil the child” :'(
Lasana, you are right in assuming that even though corporal punishment in schools was banned/frowned upon, children may still be experiencing violence at home. But also bear in mind that there is more than one form of violence. Kids are often humiliated and mentally/emotionally abused by those in “authority” — and not just in school or at home, but on the streets, in public places — young people are far too often viewed as “less than”. People talk about “discipline”, but discipline is nothing more than an opportunity to teach. In T&T — and the wider region — that often takes on the hue of our shared trauma over slavery, which we have never productively addressed in a national space. We are so conditioned to the “big stick” approach that we can’t fathom that anything else could yield results. To all those who walk around saying, “I got licks and I turned out fine”, I have news: you cannot create positive change through fear. You can only inspire it, because for anything to be sustainable, people have to buy into it. Young people need boundaries, but they also need autonomy. They need to be heard, listened to, understood. They need us to be better examples of how to resolve conflict. How can anyone teach non-violence through the use of violence — by doing the very thing they’re advocating against? It’s illogical. Who can learn if they are afraid, threatened or intimidated? Discipline is not punishment. Until we can wrap our heads around that, we’re in for more of the same.
I agree with you Janine. But even if corporal punishment only stopped in schools, I’m wondering what benefit we should be seeing as a society.
I believe it is the right thing to do. But shouldn’t our improvements not come with tangible benefits too?
Not if the rest of society operating as if it’s business as usual.
So you think we haven’t gone far enough in dealing with corporal punishment then. That’s a point. And I accept that it is the morally just thing to do.
But what benefit would we see? Can we point to any evidence of such? Something that will spur us to continue…
Are we getting better or worse?
It’s such a complex issue. It encompasses so much: the fact that they see their esteemed “leaders” setting bad examples and being rewarded nonetheless, the fact that young people these days are facing a real — and virtual reality — unlike anything we ever had to deal with at that age. They live under threat of violence; the education system is irrelevant to many youngsters’ talents and how they learn; technology is developing faster than we can keep up with it. Media and popular culture also play a role. But if you let kids step outside of the boxes and problems that we have, in large part, imposed on them, they often surprise you.
I do not believe that the Act re:corporal punishment was ever assented to……?????
Yes. I realised that after and published the Guardian link. But still most schools I know of don’t do it. Or at least not without the parent’s consent.
It’s not in the Act Lasana & Ian but it was incorporated in the Ministry of Education’s policy document
Parents are not too keen on their children being scolded….some parents.
I’ll find it for you all in a bit
And that has been so for decades Ian.
In the absence of parental responsibility and school reinforcement…chaos.
The National School Code of Conduct (2009) of the Ministry of Education states that corporal punishment should not be used.
The idea that corporal punishment is something most children don’t still experience is false for both T&T and America.
Agreed
Erline you think most schools use corporal punishment? Because I don’t know any. And should that not make a difference?
Timothy Christopher P Nokio posted a video some months back of a male teacher cuffing up a student.
Lasana Liburd…not most, but some do. Ahm…But we don’t know that because the official answer is ‘no’ lol.
I’d like to believe that male teacher cuffed his last student once that video got to the authorities Erline. Although I might be a bit naive to think so.
Lasana Liburd…first, I in no way condone a teacher cuffing a student. But I heard about an incident where a male student hit a female teacher. A male teacher witness the incident and hit the student a cuff. One might argue about following procedure, making a report, suspending student. But bet your bottom dollar, that make student knew better after that.
My 2 cents Dole Chaddie,the King brothers,Dancehall music and gangster rap mainly contributed to the country vulnerability to cope with this positive belief of being successful via the young generation…I remembered me quite well in my young days dancing to Cutty Ranks kill them music and seeing fights breaking out stabbings and chopping and also as a police officer going on raids and being told leave that one and give that one case…
Coporal Punishment has little to do with Corruption and Negative influence…
sorry for my lack of punctuations
how far back are we going? I know some country n westerns that sing about some heavy stuff…
A good West Indian discipline didn’t kill anybody…or at least, it didn’t kill most people. Sure, there were parents who used spanking to ‘the full extreme,’ but generally speaking, when used judiciously, and not out of anger, but as a means to correct the child, it did more good than harm. I got my fair share of spankings and so did my sister…and I don’t look back at those times with regret, at all. That form of punishment was for my own well-being. There were mistakes I never repeated…even up to this day. I think there’s a tendency for us to follow what is done in America; but look at their society. Is it a less violent place as a result? Let’s face it; some children would just need to get ‘de eye’ and they straighten up…real quick. Others need a scolding…and they’re good to go. For a few, taking away privileges or giving them time-out help a lot. But for some, they need a ‘cut-tail.’ Simple.
Amen brother Shay!
Most of the adults now grew up with some licks at some point in time. Ask yourself if corporal punishment was bad and resulted in a violent society, then why after it stopped, we seem to be more violent? But I think it’s more due to that was when ppl realised there was no consequences to their actions.
Lasana are you implying that ah good, old fashioned, long-time cutass worked ?
take care they come fuh yuh eh
Hahaha. I got my share of cut tail. But I can’t say that was a good or bad thing.
I escaped being the last child and tiny 🙂
Lol. Yuh see! So you should be anti-licks!
I saw my siblings get some lix though
Hahaha. You were a second hand abusee then? You learnt from the pain of others Mel? Hahaha.
Vernal, where are you on this topic?
Thank God for being a preemie and underweight!
Pick better man ….. simple!
Something to consider then in light of the discussion. So who, then, is mainly responsible for disciplining your child? The parent or the school? Keep in mind there were cases where students were disciplined and parents came to the school for the teachers! But what happened in schools, just like in the home, was some teachers took the discipline too far.
As a parent it is my duty to discipline. When in school it is the teacher / principal. If left unchecked we then rely on the state. But by then it is already too late.
The type/level of disciplinary measures used should also vary based on who is administering it.
Exactly schools supplement/complement system, not replace. But clearly the level of indiscipline we are seeing in our schools shows a failing in the home if the schools hands are tied.
As far as I am aware children still get beaten at school and at home.
True!
Oh really and what country is this? Quite certainly you are not talking about trinidad and tobago
It is definitely much less in school. I understand some teachers ask permission from parents.
I would like to think it has decreased in homes too. But I can’t prove that and it probably wouldn’t have decreased by much.
Well I have 3 ranging from 23 to 17 and dey aaalllll get dey tail wash in school AND at home #MeDohBusiness
“There is no law in T&T protecting children from corporal punishment at home or at school. Though former president George Maxwell Richards initially assented to the Children Act—which prohibits the beating of children—on August 6, 2012, it has never been proclaimed. The Office of the President, in a brief telephone interview Friday, charted the sequence of events that took the assented act out of the President’s Office before it could be proclaimed into law.
“After it was assented to, it went back to Parliament and I understand that the Child Protection Task Force had been set up and recommended that proclamation wait until the Children’s Authority was fully functioning,” the Office of the President said. “That is as far as it has reached,” the office said. “The act has not come back to the President’s office for proclamation.” That task force was set up by Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar in December 2013.”
Well whaddaya know.. Seems there is no law after all! http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-04-27/no-laws-against-corporal-punishment-tt
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/commentaries/Corporal-punishment-and-children-256780031.html
What were the overarching type of media being sold to the markets to consume? Was there a balance or was it an imbalance of ego driven self satisfying instant gratification!
I think I might make this into a broader discussion to put on the website too…
Lasana Liburd i was waiting for someone to ask this question….. what we are seeing is that generation of no corporal punishment reaching adulthood and the culture promulgated to another….with that said monsters are breeding monsters
Good question
Yup Lasana. Pure coincidence
Right after you posted, rain started falling… coincidence?
(Lol. I’m joking!)
A question like this can only be answered if data is being collected and studied. Right now we have anecdotal data on violent children. Also are we to assume that the removal of corporal punishment in school by itself is supposed to make children less violent?
I will disagree with school being the only place that it was removed.
I’m not assuming that at all. But I do wonder how we are to gauge how effective it has been or if we are to expect a visible benefit to it.
I’d like to think that there is a bonus to us being less savage to children.
But fay, even without detailed figures, we were convinced that corporal punishment was an act of violence and violence breeds violence…. Maybe we need to revisit and see it as a means of discipline and not as a type of violence…the crimes now are way more violent and savage than those that were committed during that time.
That’s one point Fay. Maybe the issue might have been the way “discipline” was administered in some cases.
Although it does seem to be a step backwards to consider it.
Reay, I am saying all these policies are put into place without any plan to collect data to show success or failure.
Put savage in quotes nuh lol
I personally agree with removing beating children as punishment. But what replaced it? What would success look like and who measures it?
We started negotiating with our kids…that’s what replaced it in most homes and schools…in my humble opinion.
I personally think people ran out of ideas when the option to blaze tail went away. But again this is an opinion because we don’t track things scientifically.
Reay Greaves Hahaha
Take away WiFi and devices is the most heinous thing you can do to children these days I think! Hahaha
No Lasana, it’s the most heinous thing you can do to parents bc that’s what babysits and educates and keep the company of most kids. Taking that away hurts the parents more bc they have no idea how to deal with their children when they are not engaged with those devices. Lol
Hahaha
where else was it removed?
Bear in mind, that decision would have been taken against the social backdrop at the time. A time when there was still some respect for authority, albeit we were already heading downhill. Look at the social climate now. And btw, even if corporal punishment was banned in schools, that did not mean children were not being disciplined at home. Now, the parents have to ask the children permission to live, it seems!
Surely that jump in murders happened too soon to be linked to the end in corporal punishment anyway right Peter Joseph?
Map it against the deportation of criminals from the US.
Good point Kendall. I don’t know if you’re on to anything eh. But sounds feasible. Lol
Ayyyyyyyyyyyyy where are the psycologists?
Lol
is there any government body or NGO that would study the longditudinal effects of our social and educational policies?
Excellent point.
We have to strive to be a data driven society.
That would have had ro start back then. Can’t retroactively study a phenomenon like that.
I don’t know. Maybe there might be ways of gathering info. But we have to know what the hell we are looking for though.
Perhaps reports of violent incidents in school with students attacking students or students attacking teachers might be a starting point.
It should have decreased each year I would think.
cant even begin to ask for that crouch. here is the thing:
in trinidad, as far as I have seen, in several ministries, some paperwork called a policy is written. and I phrase it like that because really, people really dont know how to write policy here. what they call policy are ideas. concepts, there is no map, feedback, measurement, action, framework of operation,… all the things that validate a policy many are missing. that is the one thing. the documenting of a legitimate policy
the second thing is, what is implemented is what? a policy ? Or what the minister or some director, or the principal in their school or the teacher who feel to do it or not, or not even be present…
who maps and monitors and documents that.
So see the first disjuncture
our talk of policy here is a farce.
we can look far and wide at examples. central bank monetary. what is on paper, versus on what the governor says, verse what the bank cartel does. versus what one bank will do when their big pappy walks in to buy, travel or sell the bag of money he is carrying or the safe he sending..
thanks Jeremy Francis. and one thing you dont do. is wake up one day and decide you want to go back and do a retroactive longitudinal study vikey vy(what is the way to spell that properly?)
Lasana, there would be no way to cross reference with current reports, unless the parameters are similar/the same.
Which would mean that the parameters would have had to be set back then.
It would have been easy to set up, had someone thought of it.
That’s true Jeremy Francis. We could get info but the comparison would be flawed to some degree.
Makes it damn hard to see whether we are making the progress we should be making and if we are progressing at all.
If we don’t know the answer to those then it is hard for us to push further down that road.
Although I personally believe there remains a moral ground not to hit a child, even if there is no local data to support whether or not it is better for them in the long run.
The corporal punishment we had was basically child abuse. I remember getting hit in school so hard that I could not sit for a while. That can’t be right.
The real issue I think is that teachers had no tools to use instead… it was repealed and not replaced with anything. And the vacuum created the madness we have now.
http://www.karryonservices.com/2017/02/15/relation-ships-small-town-societies-ab-use-of-power/
Now I’d assume one possible response is that children still see plenty violence at home.
That’s very likely. So maybe there should be more stringent enforcement there too.
But should there be some way of evaluating how the ban on corporal punishment is affecting school life, even before you target households?
We are not seeing any positive benefits, in fact we are seeing more defiant behavior from young people and the majority of criminals are within the age group who were not punished for their wrong doings
Wish we could have some data to really reflect on that. But what other ways are there to discipline children than violence?
What were the alternatives?
Counseling. Schools are woefully under-equipped to provide the support their students need.
So we didn’t address the problem comprehensively enough then Nicole? We kinda half arsed it?
I guess we have to be sure of what problem we are trying to solve. I wonder what that was.
That’s my belief, but as you say we need data.
But discipline should also start from young. And children learn from modelling behaviour-especially today’s young ppl who are exposed through technology. They do not subscribe to the ‘do as I say, not as I do’ school of thought. And even back then, if any adult saw you doing something contrary, they spoke to you about it and you could not answer back. The village was raising the child. We have shirked that responsibility. Where an adult tries to speak to a young person they might be met with cursing or worse.
Patricia Worrell?
Sorry. Went away. Now seeing. Corporal punishment in school was ONE element in the cycle of violence young people experience. But the experience of violence and images of violence are part of their daily lives. As usual, we implemented ONE part of what should have been. Multi-pronged approach – doing away with corporal punishment- and expected that would be the answer. And sinc it was never, and could never have been, the whole answer,….
Right. Makes sense. What other experiences of violence should we target? (If I can press you here. Lol)
So many! Children experience violence at home. I know families where the young parents don’t believe in beating (I’m not talking spanking eh!) and the older generation put endless pressure on them and will hit children themselves if they get a chance; sometimes the parents themselves believe in sharing licks. Then – we just have to watch TV or FB, Lasana. Images of violence, both real and in shows, surround us. And then there is the emotional violence and mental abuse that children receive themselves, and see their parents receiving sometimes. We ARE a violent society. We propose violent solutions to our problems at the drop of a hat. And our children watch, listen and learn.
Well, it is a cycle. Because I don’t want my children to be bullied. So that means I have to tell them to “stand their ground” too as if they were in Florida!
Or, you could teach them non-violent ways of conflict management and resolution as well. You could live and model kind, loving, non-violent relationships at home; you could try to make time to sit and talk (casually) about the media images; you could discuss their feelings of rage when they are young, so they could know that becoming angry doesn’t make them monsters; expressing angry feelings verbally is not a sin; and you could teach them self defence with the understanding that sometimes answering physical violence is necessary for your safety, but it’s not the first, or the preferred, solution. Again – no one-off solution. They learn about life choices. I want to emphasize – part of the solution is teaching children not to repress anger (which is a natural respons) but to acknowledge and manage it
Preach, Patricia Worrell.
Is that your suggestion for if a child hits my daughter Patricia Worrell?
If a child hits your daughter, Lasana, I would say that the same response would be relevant as if a child hits your son. And what you would tell each child to do would depend on each child’s abilities (I would teach each child Self defence in a context where physical bullying is a reality, by the way). BUT at any point where either physical or emotional bullying is more than a child can handle on his/her own, I’d say the adult has to step in and take action immediately. Report it. To the teacher. To the principal; to the school supervisor. But again – not first to go and offer physical violence to the bullying child/children. Your child must see you modeling the non-violence you preach; your child must also be confident that you will protect him or her, and put his/her well being first. And you need to be closely enough aware of what is happening to your child to make it clear to all concerned that you are very present in your child’s life always, and that you expect that other adults will be prepared to deal with situations where your child risks being hurt. ASAP!
I said daughter because I don’t have a son Patricia Worrell. Sadly, the teacher cannot always keep an eye on them and my daughter is the youngest in her class and the smallest.
I won’t be modelling her after Gandhi. The instruction is hit hard and sprint to the nearest teacher. And I will take it from there. Sorry.
This is always in self defence of course. A boy in her class was expelled from the school in second year. Can you imagine how miserable you have to be to expelled from a GOVT school?! Lol.
I’d wish she never had to learn about standing up to bullies and she is very reluctant to have a physical confrontation. She certainly doesn’t know about hitting from home.
But I won’t have her be bullied if I can help it.
Having said that, it isn’t an issue for her at the moment. And that class seems to be breathing easier after that expulsion.
I understand your concern. I understand your intuitive response. I didn’t tell you do a Gandhi, by the way. Read it again. I said teach her physical and emotional defence strategies. But I think, you know, that you should be allowing her to learn basic self defence so she doesn’t have to live in terror in a context of violence. I’ll be honest – I believe that only if we consciously choose non-violent responses as far as possible will we hope to see our society shift away from violence. But I am also realistic enough to say we can no longer put our heads in the sand and assume violence may touch our boy children, but not our girls. As you know, my own family learned only too well how violence can be visited on girls. I’m repeating: boys AND girls need to learn the basics of self defence; boys AND girls need to learn the basics of conflict management; boys AND girls need to develop their emotional intelligence so they can deal with their own feelings. And it has to start from early.
Yeah. I actually teach sarcasm as a first line of defence to verbal bullies. 🙂
It’s tough times. We kinda blank that bit out of our own childhoods for the most part. The fighting. There was loads of it. Nobody should want that for their children.
I love sarcasm – but I find it takes a certain level of intelligence for people to get sarcasm. And an amazing number of physical bullies aren’t too bright! ?
Hahaha. Usually their friends get it though. Confusing them is good. They will put a front to save face. But they will eventually keep away if you do it just right I think. Lol.
Funny enough, I still use it on attorneys when I get pre-action protocol letters. I publish their letter with my sarcastic response. And it has saved me thousands in legal fees! Hahaha