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I am satisfied that the restrictions on the use of firearms and prohibited weapons contained in the Firearms Act do not readily accommodate “threat assessment training” of politically exposed persons or their families involving the possession and use of firearms.
However we live in extraordinarily violent times in an unstable country. If such training took place in breach of the Firearms Act and if as full a disclosure of the facts as national security permits is given, the public will make its own judgment whether sufficient mitigating circumstances existed. The public might then overlook legal breaches that occurred when the public officials and their families were trained and treat such breaches as a lapse in judgment.
(Copyright Elections.TT)
The facts may be sufficiently mitigating even if such training went further than what may have been done in the past. My fellow columnist, Raffique Shah, a former military man, in the Trinidad Express on Tuesday last, put forward matters in mitigation.
The above sets the stage for my comments on Dr Roodal Moonilal’s publication in Parliament of pictures of two teenagers—said to be the children of the Attorney General—each holding what appears to be a high powered weapon at a location said to be an Army Camp in the course of a training exercise.
Comments on these photographs must, of necessity, be tempered because we do not have all the facts and we have not been given the benefit of any comprehensive official statement on the matter.
Against the background of what we do know, should the Attorney General, Mr Faris Al Rawi, resign his office as the Opposition is loudly insisting?
The offences, if any, would have been committed by the persons in possession of the firearms and those who transferred possession to them and not the office holders. The AG is not a likely subject of prosecution. There is also no question of constitutional propriety because the Constitution does not regulate the conduct of the Attorney General or any member of Cabinet.
(Copyright Baltimore Examiner)
In this case, therefore, the true tests of whether any question of resignation arises are the requirement—although not a requirement of law—of office holders to have moral authority and whether, the image conveyed by the pictures reveals conduct on the part of the office holder repugnant to good governance.
Before going further, I would like to emphasise that a picture depicts or records its subject but it also conveys a visual perception. Persons looking at a picture may not visually perceive the same thing.
In my view, the image or visual perception of the pictures of the two gun-possessing youngsters are a key part of the problem presented for both the AG and the Army threat assessment trainers in the court of public opinion.
They did their case harm in that forum by a lack of understanding of the ill wind of deep-seated race and class divisions in this society, which inexorably led to a reaction that the photograph represented another example of privilege—permitting something for which more ordinary youngsters would be roundly condemned.
Neither displays of resentment at the disclosure of embarrassing facts nor emotional responses impress or suppress discerning public opinion.
For “ordinary”, read poor and not fair. These deep-seated divisions are in part fuelled by the manifest lack of objective justice in our country and regularly high-handed and unlawful treatment of citizens—like wrecking a vehicle when the driver is present or readily available to move it.
The core facts, as the Leader of the Opposition has stated, are already in the public domain. With the core facts regarding firearm possession already known, one must bear in mind that ultimately it is for the DPP to decide whether any prosecutions should be pursued on the basis of what is shown in the photographs, against those who were in possession of the weapons and those who transferred them.
Conflicts of interest are the enemy of good governance but—on the facts available and given the definitive nature of the photographs and confirmation that the army was the source of the weapons at a controlled location—I do not discern any conflict between the personal interest of the AG and the professional conduct of any of his duties.
He cannot now do much to procure a change in the record of what has happened.
To the extent that the children—said to be the AG’s children—were exposed, they were exploited for partisan political purpose. The Government responses to their exposure were emotional and lacked humility and an understanding of widespread feelings that justice is not objective.
This incident may have undermined the moral authority of the office of the Attorney General, but I doubt whether it has irrevocably impaired that authority or overthrown his ability to perform his duties.
It is probably a waste of time to recommend doing so but what about occasionally saying sorry for lapses of judgment?
(Copyright Shaun Rambaran/forge.co.tt)
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Martin G Daly SC is a prominent attorney-at-law. He is a former Independent Senator and past president of the Law Association of Trinidad and Tobago.
He is chairman of the Pat Bishop Foundation and a steelpan music enthusiast.
Unbiased true but no mention of any breaches if any of the laws of Trinidad and Tobago and that is the fundamental issue.
He did mention that if the training occurred it would be a breach of the Firearms Act.
Good because the Defence Force put out a press release that the training did take place.
Martin Daly, thank you for being lucid, objective, forthright, analytical, logically sound, etc. This is not a matter of legality, but it is a matter of what is proper and contextually appropriate.
It is a matter of right and wrong according to the constitution and laws under which we abide.
No wonder this country is so dam lawless. No laws for pnm people. How sad.
non issue
yuh no if it was ah unc AG all of u woulda have ah different opinion one set ah bias ppl the children are under age who is blasted responsible for them
Time for you to move on with that type of thinking……you are being left behind
Jason Lara Gary Griffith and Om Lala who is UNC say there’s nothing wrong with the training exercise under military personnel who is we to say otherwise…..get over it
Did Gary Griffith or Om Lalla amend the Firearms Act? The law is clear on the issue.
If the AG wants certain high risk persons to be allowed firearms training, why doesn’t he just amend the law? It requires a simple majority.
Lawyers have two sets of opinion.
They choose one depending on which side of the fence they are on.
And if was a UNC.. AG..all ah allya. Woulda.. Hang him…kiss Mah ass mocking pretenderS
Do u have a ass…oh oh ur parrot say no ass..lol
I too speak out against any wrong I see to as well… And let me correct u and your erroneous perception ,I don’t just hold on to a political party, I hold on to the values and integrity they have… As to the situation and circumstances with what transpired totally different from what u are trying to paint it as… Get all your facts straight, read and understand then make an informed conclusion, not just braying like moonilal and the posse…
Shame that Daly is so equivocal here. As a top of the line columnist and counsel, you’d want him to make a call and be more direct. Javeed’s report on this last Sunday provided the sort of clarity that this lacks, even if one is commentary and the other is reportage.
Precisely
O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive! Walter Scott
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/walterscot118003.html
But- that was before I saw the actual statement calling for the AG to resign.
This is how I saw it a few weeks ago;
“The PP government set a threshold for resignation of ministers that was so high it was impossible to meet. Moonilal is in no position to call for any resignation. Until the UNC purges its members who presided over the PP regime it will find it difficult to be an effective opposition. Sadly the PNM sycophants who believe pictures of other children holding arms is an argument, are as effective as Moonilal on this score. The “lawful excuse” argument is not an answer either, as unlawful permission is not a lawful excuse. I think if the children were under the supervision of the DF, then someone in the DF dropped the ball. That doesn’t affect the position of the AG at all. And if that had been said 72 hours ago, this would have been a non -issue then. My point is it is sometimes more politically expedient to admit a minor error than to engage in crap that demeans the intelligence of the public.”
Explain the familiarisation of minors to me please Justin Phelps. As far as I am aware, nobody in the Defence Force arbitrarily changes the laws of T&T as they see fit.
So how can we say: “So be it” to that?
One more thing though..let’s not confuse ‘laws’ with ‘security protocol for officials’
There is a certain thought pattern that says if the police shoot a man dead in the street, then they must have a good reason. And we pass on our responsibility to think and assess for ourselves.
We forgot that the AG or the respective policeman or soldier either went to our schools or came from our neighbourhood or what have you.
They put on a uniform or are cloaked by a title and suddenly they are above reproach.
I’d be happy to discuss a rational explanation. But I can’t settle for because a soldier thought it was best then so be it.
That’s what the statement from the DF said, and that and the law aren’t necessarily inconsistent. If you’re talking specifically about the pictures, then I think once that’s investigated and the facts found, you can then apply the law.
Well, I’m only talking about the photos Justin. To be honest, I don’t want to hear Gary Griffith on this. I want to hear men of the law like yourself. This is a legal matter and nothing else.
Because I don’t know that Jack Warner or Embau Moheni or the other National Security Ministers were taking their families to the range. And I think many ministers get death threats.
I don’t accept that because a soldier says so, so be it.
No one has answered my questions yet…”Who authorised that the children go to the range? Are they living on the street? Did the arm kidnap them and take them to the range?”
Exactly Lasana! as I said somewhere above..two former AGs said that they were never afforded military training for their families even though they received threats. So who decides who gets military training and who doesn’t?
Lasana Liburd I think any lawyer would want to wait for the outcome of the DF inquiry. Your point that the law can’t be varied by a soldier is good. But it’s a prejudgement of the issue to say very much more at this stage. Isn’t it?
I agree Justin. But we can bat away some weak arguments from the get-go. So that’s what we are doing.
And the fact that there possibly is a violation of the law suggests that there MUST be an issue here.
Of course I’m not saying that anyone should resign because I haven’t seen anything to suggest that. Maybe there will be a law change after. Who knows.
But I do want my laws applied fairly by all citizens. No two legs good, four legs better stuff for me at all. 🙂
That laws be applied fairly by all citizens is the bigger issue for me as well
It can’t be a non-issue because it’s Al-Rawi’s children
As if Al-Rawi will turn up at the work places of his defendants and argue their cases when they mess up. As VS said, let every man paddle his own damn canoe.
Let us look at this without red or yellow jerseys and decide what is fair and what isn’t.
Good luck there eh Lasana
We on the same page, except that I would’ve written it a bit more mildly – there are two investigations afoot, and I can’t see that as being a case of inaction on the ground that the AG is a big boy.
Justin, I don’t think anybody in the country still holds much hope for probes anymore. As we get the information, we will hold our own enquiries and try the relevant parties in the court of public opinion.
It might be the only institution that still works. Might.
They might as well just put the facts into the public domain and leave it there for us to decide what we want to do with it.
Who authorised that the children go to the range? Are they living on the street? Did the arm kidnap them and take them to the range?
I think the DF would have to authorize that. But I’m not sure where that takes us.
They live on the base or with their parents? Are they member of the DF? If not, how can the DF authorise that?
Justin if someone threatens me and my family will the DF authorize training for me and my children too?
I don’t think so-on the ground you’re not a office holder. The distinction being that we are relegated to the protection afforded to the police. But if you were an office holder, I’d have no problem with you and your family receiving training- all laws being complied with.
So it’s on a ‘whose who’ basis
ok..I understand
You are misreading the point and I wonder if its deliberate. All I am asking is who authorise the go with the DF personnel?
That’s not unusual. Why I don’t walk around port-of-Spain with a security detail and a Prado? It’s been so I think, for years
You still havent answered my question…I dont get the tangent
Children being allowed to train with military weapons has been around for years?
Because their parents belong to the whose who gang?
No I never said that- you asked me about training for you and your family and I was pointing out that office holders and the rest of us have been treated differently as regards security for years
Yes..I was asking about training with military weapons (which is what the topic is on) for me and my children if we’re under threat
My question was prob on another of your comments. Read this thru then answer nah
Not security for office holders..I’m aware of that
Savitri Maharaj, you lost me when you started talking about “deliberately misreading” and “tangents”
Right, reading thru the thread again I have NOT asked that question, I assure you.
Justin Phelps because my question is extremely straighforward…but you seem to be seeing words that are not there.
Lasana help meh translate here pls. We have crossed wires here
Mel Lissa if that’s your point the truth is I can’t answer that-how the DF trains officials and their families is not known to me- I supposed their investigation will reveal that. The fact that they are regarded as high risk ppl, and have been for years, is all I know. That’s why they don’t have to abide by traffic regs like everyone else.
Actually Justin, they do have to abide by traffic regs….it is the Police who are allowed certain powers and privileges, and the high risk ppl benefit.
Randall Mitchell exceeded the speed limit recently, and is now $1000.00 lighter.
Yes..my point on the issue is that if the AG’s children could be allowed to train with military weapons because they are under threat then all of us and our children should be able to do so. We’re all under threat…check the murder rate. Bring the gun laws to the Parliament so we could all have a fighting chance!
Why should we have laws for commoners and different ones for the ‘whose who’
The only refinement on that that I can see is the different way in which the officials have been treated as to their security all along. If that includes familiarization of minors then so be it. If not, then something went wrong. But it’s premature to say it’s a who’s who situation I think.
Could be premature ..so I await the outcome of the investigation. If there’s one
Hahaha- I find it hard to disagree with you to be honest. Real hard.
??
Laugh and cry in the same house here. Lol.
Usually that ends with a hanging- hope is not we
Justin Everyone in Trinidad is a high risk person…from granny paralysed in her bed to the 3 month old girl child..
We the the minions are even more at risk as we travel to and from work, work shift, lime in a bar ’round the corner, drop off and pick up children from school.
If ”officials” are made to feel so isolated from the risk we minions have to face each day, how will they ever understand and craft and implement policies to make us more secure.
Why do you think that former President of Ecuador could have driven around without security, in his old beetle and live in his own old farmhouse? He was doing his job and he appeared to be doing his job while not being corrupt or arrogant or displaying signs of hubris.
These ”officials’ must never be of more importance that ordinary citizens. State security is meaningless without security of the citizens.
Lasana Liburd…Justin Phelps referred here to two investigations, but subsequently from the scope of what was investigated, there appeared only one. Or is the police investigation to commence now/awaiting results?
Like emailgate and others Nerisha, we will forever be waiting for the results
Is the law optional Albert? Curiousity? Would you have said the same if it was Kamla’s grandson?
The law is there to say what is allowed and what isn’t. If it isn’t allowed, then we have an issue.
If the law is broken, then someone is culpable. Strange how the law can be applied brutally to “ordinary” folk but when it comes to certain people, the law isn’t applicable and probes are suddenly a waste of time.
Strange indeed!
For real !
got to run in a while read the defence force act,military bases ,there are standing protocols the civil police cannot intervene unless invited by the base commander .even you enter you must declare you arms .this is the practice in the commonwealth ,that is why it is not going any where folks
That’s wrong though- I haven’t seen anyone arguing that Lasana.
The rules of the law apply in the barracks just like everywhere else albert. No matter what you want the call the police that prosecutes there. You cannot break the laws of Trinidad and Tobago anywhere including at Teteron.
gun safety must always be taught,a gun has no brain it cannot think for its self.one must be able to distinguish what is a firearm,curiosity got the better of the children ,every one is fascinated by guns,probe for what wasting time
The National Security Minister doesn’t even know if his boss is Rowley or Carmona. So don’t tell me what a soldier or policeman says. Show me the constitution that we ALL live by–police and army included.
Depends Albert Edwards. Is the military facility in Trinidad and Tobago or Iraq?
I can’t believe you really thought of that question. What you should ask is why should children be on the firing range in the first place and what that is legal. And the answer is it is not.
Show me different in the constitution.
Additionally what are the practical purposes. They will never have these weapons at their disposal, unless of course Albert and others know something I don’t. As such this , in my view is also a matter of what is “proper” and “appropriate “.
Brian Harry…from Gary Griffith’s comment on that obvious issue, he suggested in a scenario where security is taken out, the children have familiarity with the weapons used by security to defend themselves.
ok convince me that on a military facility or a shooting range that the act is applicable
So suppose I have a licensed firearm, is it okay for me to train my children to use my gun because I think there is a credible threat?
What if I got a police partner to say it was okay? Then I would be fine?
Albert Edwards,if we do not hold those in high office to account,then we will continue to suffer all the ills of which you speak,sir.
I don’t see any excerpt saying: “Unless a soldier thought it was okay.”
Do rules matter in this country or do they not?
Are soldiers allowed to overrule law in Trinidad and Tobago? Is this war time?
Two former AGs reported that they were threatened while in office but neither of them nor their families were afforded training by TTDF
Essentially they are saying it is illegal for children to hold arms but not if you are the AG. And somehow some people are suggesting that is a credible argument. I’m really confused.
Mel Lissa Thanks ! I was not sure any other AG commented on this .
Yes one PNM and one UNC Jimi…it was in the news
Lance and Albert: “The Children’s Act of 2012, Part III:
8. (1) A person who gives, sells, lends or rents a
firearm or ammunition to a child commits an offence
and is liable on summary conviction to a fine of fifty
thousand dollars and to imprisonment for ten years.”
Thank you. I made that point before reading this
we make a hue and cry ,lives are lost every day,we don’t spare a thought to the victims and their families,long delays in trials ,people in the remand yard suffering ,the society is under siege,unless you own property in Miami where you could flee or holding a green card,how many inquires are outstanding and cannot be submitted,this is my discourse on this matter .
Albert , nonsense. Stay with the thread. Let’s not take on other peripheral issues (though important) not relevant nor cohesive with the ongoing discussion.
Are they mutually exclusive? If we make exceptions to the laws depending on expediency, then what purpose do the laws serve? Moreover, keep in mind the office this person holds-in charge of upholding the law!
It could only be put to rest when the police and army finish their investigations,Albert.
AS far as I am aware, there isn’t a police investigation, and why not? If the weapon in the picture was loaded, as suggested by some who know better than I, and if they were allowed to use them, is the base like the Vatican where they have their own laws on foreign soil or are they expected to comply with the law of the land?
lol.Albert Edwards allyuh does make me laugh yes.Yuh spout yuh nonsense bout Jericho,I find the information,now yuh want to put it to rest(lol).Go and study yuh criminology ,pardna.See if yuh couldhelpoutde police here(lol)
yes Lance Noel time to put this to rest,there are more burning issues to elucidate on ,the lack of a DNA gathering legislation,the hiring of persons with scientific degrees and a system of accelerated promotion,these are excerpts from my criminology thesis which will be submitted very soon
Albert Edwards,yuh satisfied?
Weapons were not loaded—army
Shaliza Hassanali
Published:
Friday, October 14, 2016
Major Al Alexander
Senior Public Affairs Officer of the Defence Force, Major Al Alexander has confirmed an investigation has been launched into the leaked photographs of the Attorney General Faris Al-Rawis’ children training with high-powered guns at Camp Cumuto, promising there will be no “cover-up” in the controversial matter.
Yesterday, Alexander said a senior military officer had started an investigation but could not say when it would be concluded since “more than a dozens persons” who were at Camp Cumuto during the training exercise would have to be questioned.
Al-Rawi, who initially refused to confirm whether the children in the photographs were his, first defended himself by saying his family had been invited by the Defence Force for a threat assessment after he received deaths threats soon after entering office.
But Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley took it a step further on Wednesday when he lambasted the soldier who would have taken the photos and leaked it to Moonilal, saying he would have put the AG’s children at risk.
In explaining yesterday what transpired at the training session, Alexander said “none of the principals—Mr Al-Rawi, his wife and kids—none of them took part in the exercise. There was a training session for the operatives. The purpose of them being there was for them to understand in particular emergencies what is done. They would have a level of competency and the capabilities of the operators. So it was really for them to observe.”
So how did the guns get into the hands of Al-Rawi’s children?
Alexander said similar to how the Defence Force did their career guidance sessions, there would be a certain level of curiosity.
“In our perspective, these are weapons that in emergencies would have to be used. We don’t want children being shell shocked and freezing when they need to move. It was really to remove the fear and apprehension. We allowed them to hold it (gun).”
In the course of holding the weapons for a few seconds at the end of the exercise, Alexander said strict supervision was adhered to and the “magazines were emptied.”
Also contacted yesterday, former chief of defence staff, Major General Ralph Brown, said he agreed with Rowley for rapping the army on the knuckles for breach of trust after the photos surfaced online.
“If it is that there was a soldier involved in that detail that provided those things (photographs) that is a breach of confidence. It means now that the army is getting involved in politics which we never did in my time.”
Thanks Lance. Still a little double speak from the military but I guess with all the furore that is expected. On the one hand he said they were curious. Then he said they needed to hold the weapons so that if anything happened they wouldn’t be shell-shocked and know what to expect. Don’t really matter though as they were clearly allowed/required to handle the weapon under military supervision.
No no Rose-Marie. This is not a matter of military supervision. The military does not decide what is legal and what isn’t. The courts do. It doesn’t matter what anyone in the military says at all.
This is a legal issue and not a military issue.
Lasana Liburd…I am not sure but what does the military have to do with individual threat assessment? Doesn’t the police service have special branches to deal with those situations? Just seeking some clarity!
Good point Nerisha.
looking for Jericho,he ain’t day you cant find it Lance Noel time to close the books
I’m looking for it now Rose- Marie.
So Lance this implies they were not really required to handle the weapons and were merely being entertained? I’m not sure the exact circumstances of the “training” were ever made public. Daly himself hinted at this. I don’t remember reading any account or report that implied that they were just required to “look on” but I could be wrong.
children of public personalities are at risk so evasive trainging and response mechanism is offered to all ,what is moonilal case what illegality that he is suggesting,why should the Ag reply to a well timed political ambush,no need for him to demit office,the matter is closed
I and you, if you live in TT are more at risk. They have security detail, we dont
But Rose-Marie, it is illegal for children to handle guns in T&T. So no matter Moonilal’s motives, clearly something is wrong with this picture.
It was not the best avenue for him to raise it. It would have been as legitimate after the budget. Or maybe he would have had trouble tabling something that allowed him to show photos in parliament otherwise.
But even though Faris didn’t break the law, someone else might have in a matter that involved the AG’s children. I think that makes it an issue.
I know but Daly’s opening paragraphs set the context. The firearms act does not make provision for it but these are extraordinary times in a violent and unstable country so I guess the act should be revisited to accommodate for this type of scenario for exposed office holders. So if that is the basis on which the AG should express remorse then it still seems a little superficial to me because he was not the instigator. I guess he could have said no I can’t let my kids touch weapons because it is illegal but if the CDS recommended it I don’t know how wise it would have been to decline. Also according to Raffique don’t young cadets of a similar age handle weapons?
So I agree it is an issue but not really for the AG in the context that he should be apologizing or expressing humility. I think they should revisit the legislation and make make a provision for this type of scenario.
Lasana who gave the children permission to go to the range?
But the Childrens Act of 2012 does eh
Lasana, just a point of correction….. while it is illegal for children to handle guns etc., on a military compound, those laws are not necessarily applicable. If you read the Raffique Shah article in the week, while the law says 25 and over, Police, Defence Force, Prisons etc all recruit from 18 years old…. and they are all trained in and issued weapons for their regular duties. Additionally, Cadets in every school where they’re use weapons in training and they actually fire the weapons at times….and they are from 12 years old….. and none of those instances are illegal!!! Plus, as pointed out, they did not actually fire the weapons!!
There’s a section of the Act that deals specifucally with Cadets, but they dont practice with high powered rifles
All of this is saying to me that the laws need to be revisited in light of new requirements for political families to undergo military training. Clearly both theb Children’s Act and the Firearms Act need review. Trying to throw the AG under the bus for an exercise that was recommended and supervised by the military is clutching a straws. It’s a waste of time. The only reason the opposition raised the issue in the first place is because they figured it would reflect badly on the AG. My view is the Defense Force has more to answer for than the AG even if as a parent he had to give permission for his kids to undertake the “training”. I disagree with Daly that the AG should appear humble and apologetic.
He is the AG and assuming he knows the law, he authorises his children to visit a shooting rage and handle high power rifles, not even a normal pistol?
Brent, Raffique can give an opinion on this like any other citizen. But this is a legal matter and not a military matter. You better believe the laws of the country are applicable in the barracks. No real country would have it otherwise. In fact they are more bound to the rules of law than anywhere else.
If our armed forces don’t obey the law of the land then what chance does the country have?
Brent, I was a cadet for three years and never fired a gun. What we did was march around for two days a week with heavy old empty Mark 4 rifles and exercises.
Yes, there was a camp as well which including a shooting range–as I was told. That’s like once a year. I didn’t go. But don’t make it sound like cadets are a miniature army.
Now, it might well be that the law needs to be changed. And who better than the AG to lead that change?
What you do is you take it to Cabinet and show why change is necessary in a transparent manner. Thereby eliminating the need for anyone to show a photo with your children secretly and illegally training with firearms.
Rose-Marie, Daly spoke to a lack of humility and I think he was suggesting that the PNM’s response was ignorant of our growing intolerance with a privileged class for whom the rules of law don’t apply.
Now it may or may not prove to be the case that the law was broken here. Maybe we will find out eventually. Most likely we won’t.
But tuned-in leadership would have understand immediately what the potential repercussions of those photos were. And he suggested, to my reading of his column, that the PNM failed to appreciate why there might be an issue here.
There was also talk that theTTDF regularly have children over for various reasons. When they do, part of the exercise allows these children to handle weapons under supervision. As I understand it people in the know have said that it is clear that the weapons have no ammo. Whatever comes out of this will affect these regular efforts by the TTDF in the future. It is also disingenuous to compare kids under the supervision of the TTDF with kids in hot spot areas holding illegal weapons that are ready for firing. For this reason alone I would consider this matter a non-issue because this is a regular activity of the TTDF in its outreach programmes.
The military and the police, among others, regularly have career fairs and at some of them they have weapons on display and they do allow the public to interact with them (of course they are all unloaded) in fact, last week there was a front page picture in the Guardian of one such child, dressed in full police battle gear…..with an officer there for supervision….. my point is, while the law is clear…. there are instances where activities take place that the law would not apply to.
And that is the problem with Trinidad. Any statement that goes: “The law is clear BUT…”
For any country to work, you either respect the law or you don’t. Judy-ann, for me regular wrongdoing is no excuse. Wasn’t that what they said with the speed gun? How can anyone breaking the law–repeatedly or otherwise–be a non-issue?
The fact that it is the police and army makes it worse. If we can’t count on them to set an example and to understand the value of the law then how is this a real country?
I keep saying it’s not a real country, we pretending to be grown up
Lasana I take your point about the leadership being “tuned out” to the public intolerance of what might be perceived of class and rank privilege. Especially after the constant pissing in our faces by office holders from the president to the CJ and others. You have people asking questions like “so if I find my children under threat I should go and ask the army for training”. Or comparing the AG’s children holding guns to juvenile gangsters holding guns. These demonstrate a level of dissonance. For that reason I guess the leadership should have been more tempered in their response and tried to address the core issue. But Moonilal pull their strings real tight!
The last thing on my mind is Moonilal though. For me, if someone is asked a question about conduct in public office, they should answer with a certain level of respect for their post and the responsibilities of their post.
They could cuss Moonilal how much they want on their own time.
If we the people have a question, give us a respectful response. Even as you’re clarifying something. That’s good service. The kind we would expect anywhere that we are spending our money.
I agree. That’s why I said Moonilal pulled their strings. They really reacted to his nastiness instead of giving a measured response. But that was mostly yuh hot mouth PM 😀
It is probably very easy to lose sight of things like that when you’re PM and surrounded by people telling you every day that you’re God’s gift to the country.
But you’ve got to value critics when you’re in those sort of roles. Everyone needs balance.
This is me giving him the benefit of the doubt here that he wasn’t intentionally trying to confuse the public or simply can’t control that hot mouth of his. Lol.
To be honest I doubt he was deliberately trying to confuse the issue. Remember it was Moonilal who made it all about Al Rawi and his children. The core issue is really the reach of powers of the Army brass and how do they effectively protect the families of the highly exposed executive. I doubt the source of the pictures was Al Rawi family themselves. So that is another angle that needs to be looked at. How did those pictures of what we can assume is a sensitive exercise end up in the opposition’s hands. But Moonilal obviously touched a nerve. And while “righteous indignation” at the manner in which the whole incident was exposed is understandable, I think Hot Mouth really should have explored all angles before shooting off (pardon the pun). As you said it’s really a legal issue not a moral one.
Lasana, I have not looked at the specific law but I await the TTDF Enquiry which will certainly clarify this going forward, at least so I hope.
Lolol Judy-ann, after they’ve bought out the CDS last months? But all the same, I too am hoping the TTDF expose the whole lot
If you are looking for any organization in this or any country to have whistleblowers. Your last choice would usually be the Army.
Not that they don’t. But it is surely the most difficult environment to have an independent mind and clear conscience.
Lasana, after members of the TTDF were thrown under the bus without facts first, I would hope they would expose the whole lot
Trinis always put their imaginary future against their real past when making such decisions.
I would like to know if this sort of “scenario training” was ever offered to the children of other ministers or AGs in the past. At least we could know how long they have been breaking the law if in fact they did. It would also out to rest the whole “class” and color side issue. To me the defense force initial response has already been inconsistent. They mentioned the exercise involved their own staff but the children were curious and that’s how they happened to handle the weapons. Then they tried to explain that they needed to be more hands on so they wouldn’t be shell-shocked I and panic if something happened. 2 different versions by the same person .
Lasana Liburd lol…yeah
Rose-Marie Ingrid Lemessy-Forde it was reported in the news by 2 former AGs that they did receive threats while in office but never got any training for themselves nor their families. So far, no other Minister came forward and said that they were afforded such tarining
Rose-Marie Ingrid Lemessy-Forde, if you read the whole thread I think you will find someone saying this has not been done in the past
The whole idea seems to be that if an armed assailant is able to wipe out the AG’s security detail and the AG himself that the children would be expected to then pick up arms and outdo the adults and armed assailants.
Or is there another way this could play out that I haven’t considered?
Steups. Might as well teach the children crisis negotiation instead. Of the “Our Father” prayer.
Lol. They watching too much Liam Neeson and Denzil Washington movies!
Lol. Our imagination always seems to kick in during damage limitation exercises.
Rose-Marie Ingrid Lemessy-Forde…from my understanding, the young lady posted the picture on fb, apparently for a short time, and that is how it came into the public domain to be used. I also believe the picture was taken almost a year before, in November of 2015, if I recall correctly. Granted, children of publicly exposed persons should be off limits, but I guess in this instance, it may have been necessary to make the point-that is, confirm identity, weapon, and whether it was loaded. Read comments from those who know better that apparently it was.
The Ag when asked about the photos,took no ownership of the children.It was the PM,who went to the parliament and took amouthful to the security forces for giving pics to the opposition.
Rose Marie,according to major Alexander of the army,neither the AG nor his family was involved in any training,but were merely invited to observe the operatives who guard them,going through different scenarios.
I’m not sure I’m with Mr. Daly fully on this analysis. First of all..his last line about saying sorry for a lapse in judgment. .was that for the AG or Moonilal? My first pick is Moonilal who exercised bad judgment in choosing to parade the children soley for the AG and his kids to be ridiculed. And secondly his take about the govt. response being emotional and lacking in humility I’m not getting. I mean if the military in their judgement directed or recommended this training for his children due to the “threat assessment” who am I as AG to decline? Should he humbly apologize for subjecting his children to the training? Granted he may have misread the mood of the average Joe in making this whole thing a class/race issue or privilege issue and maybe the “righteous indignation” response to Moonilal’s crassness did not sit well with people who have an axe to grind. But Daly said it himself..the “discerning” people would see through the fluff anyway.
Who is the individual,Albert Edwards?
The individual who sent the photos i am sorry for his arse,
”Sorry there was a lapse in judgement on our part.The kids were just curious about the weapons used in the training.”.End of text.Instead,we go into politician mode,trying to deceive.
We’re trying to rationalise politics.Wouldn’t the pNM have done the same thing ,if there was a pic of AG Ramlogans’s son,holding a high powered rifle?
within the confines of state security there are some practices that are kept within the bosoms of those involve,that exposure will put a lot of persons life in great danger,such information is classified and has been seen as normal,waving the photos simply for purposes of gaining attention ,i have deplored,do we know all those who are members of the TRA and those of private shooting rangers,the MP was reckless in his presentation of the facts
I think you forgot what happened with the email allegations. Those same blank papers were waved in parliament. Where’s the outrage with that?
”what about occasionally saying sorry for lapses of judgement”?That’s all.Instead evrybody trying to do a Sunil Narine,by trying to spin.
Did you folks read and understand,senior counsel’s last line?
moonilal as usual set up an ambush and glorifying the gore that usually accompanies such even ,i take senior counsel advice this is a non issue,the member of parliament must remember those come for equity must come with clean hands.
I don’t think he said it was a non-issue at all. There is probably no grounds for Faris to resign or to be prosecuted over this. But that doesn’t make it a non-issue.
Agreed Lasana..I’m tired of seeing the ‘non issue’ comment when it is an issue
i agree with you but the use of parliamentary time to gain points,such maters are sensitive and should not be in the open
security protocols should be observed,operational matters like these should be kept out of the public eyes,all he had to do is call the public relations people,sounding like Archimedes ,Eureka i have found it,the mp knows just trying to see if he can score points,security must never be compromised ,some years i used to be on the rifle range at La Seiva every sunday shooting full bore
Did you have a permit to shoot full bore Albert Edwards?
What’s the point about bring in the range and shooting full bore? Irrelevant! The SC did not say it was a ‘non-issue ‘!!!!
Politically tone deaf and arrogant vs exploitative and reckless. Pretty good synopsis of either party to me.
I paraphrase a bit of course. Lol.
And like we dont want to change and move forward !
Lol. Yuh real good. Summarize Daly whole article in less than 10 words!
lol
Thank You S.C.Martin Daly for your objective and unbiased opinion. You have always been truthful and objective. The true hallmark of a man! Supporters of any political party must not be blinded by loyalty. It’s better by far to be honest with our leaders. In the end, they all see through your pretense and respect you less!
Thos is a lawyer. Lawyers always have two opinions.
He is here trying to exonerate an act that illegal under the laws we live under.
You seem to agree with this lawbreaking.
You seem to agree with this lawbreaking?! Lawyers always have two opinions?! Probably those with whom you are acquainted. I’ve never met the man Mr. Daly, BUT, when he speaks or comment, EVERYONE LISTENS! There are NO DISSENTING VOICES! Under what ROCK you came from?! Apparently, YOU cannot understand or comprehend S.C. Daly’s LEGAL OPINION. AND, I DO NOT SUFFER FOOLS GLADLY! BYE!
You are a lawless person???? Are you a lawyer looking for some wuk from d pnm???
Narry Singh, to answer your question NO I am not a lawless person! Secondly, I’m not a lawyer and I am not looking for WUK whatever that implies. I wish to categorically state, as a person of African/Mixed DESCENT or WHATEVER, I’ve benefited more from the UNC under BASDEO PANDAY, than any PNM Government. I DARE say, those of East Indian Descent is MUCH KINDER TO ME! As a matter of fact, I’ve NEVER received A THING FROM THE PNM! I AM NOT THAT FORTUNATE! However, I’ve experienced first hand the NATURE of the UNC’S style of Politics AND I’ve decided to lay my BUCKET down with the PNM! THERE’S NO GENUINE AFFECTION FOR PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT IN THE UNC! I SAY THAT WITHOUT MALICE OR ILL WILL. IS THE PNM PERFECT?! DEFINITELY NOT! I WAS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BY VIRTUE OF MY ILL HEALTH. NEVERTHELESS, THAT ACTION WAS AS A RESULT OF ONE INDIVIDUAL. I WILL GO EVEN FURTHER TO SUGGEST, THAT THERE ARE GOOD, LAW ABIDING, DECENT PEOPLE OF EAST INDIAN DESCENT, AS WELL AS OF AFRICAN DESCENT! OUR FAITH AND BELIEF IN GOD WILL GUIDE US TO THOSE WHO MEAN US WELL! IN closing, I Honestly Believe That The Hon. Prime Minister Dr. Rowley Will In Time Bring About The Necessary Changes SOO Badly Needed In Trinidad And Tobago For The Benefit Of All!
Non issue..as far as I’m concerned…
Steupes!!!
According to everything I have seen, the AG was not present when these pictures were taken therefore there was no lapse of judgement on his part, or am I missing something?!
Thanks, Lasana Liburd…the strength of the secrecy culture is frightening…
We have to start seeing these people as flesh and blood and not some sort of quasi-gods. Nothing against Faris or any other politician.
But they are simply not above the law and we have to ensure that they know it, otherwise we are enablers in their misconduct.
Agreed ! If he was there he still would be barred from speaking on the issue .
Barred from speaking on the issue? Based on the Las Vegas convention of what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? Lol.
Our leaders are accountable for their behaviour at all times. Since when is what Faris’ kids get up a matter of national security that could destabilise the country if it went public?
Lasana Liburd speaking on the issue I will view as an attempt to publicly influence any investigation into the subject matter. I do not expect anything to come out of both investigations. These office holders are not independent based on how they are appointed to those positions. Cabinet calls the shots. That is a serious problem here, as our Public Servants who are responsible for these investigations, depends on the Government in office for promotion, buying out of vacation and extension beyond their retirement date. This effectively kills all investigations. The Army launched an investigation. An extension was given last week without any reasonable justification to the head of the organization. the government is saying tighten we belt, the country has no money. What would a reasonable person infer from the extension given in light of the ongoing investigation by the Army? We need an Act to make these positions independent. The UK passed one such Act a few years ago. Statements already uttered will skew the investigations.
All I read was fluff and evasion of responsibility
So were the kids kidnapped and taken to the range? Are they allowed to go with anyone without asking permission of their parents?
An obscure law appears to have been broken and the opposition using it to make some political gains.
The law was so obscure that the DF and AG appear to not be aware of it.
Not enough justification for a resignation.
The Defence Force and AG may be culpable and admit mistakes made under the circumstances that the present environment warranted some of the exercises.
We get on with governing the country.
All it may have taken was to say sorry for a lapse in judgement .
First off
This was a budget debate.
What purpose would the presentation if those pics serve besides distraction from a lack of real contribution…
They said not one word on the FATCA LEGISLATION BILL that picture changed the whole debate bcz they know Trinbagonians like bacchanal
Have to keep dragging them backbtobthe topic being discussed
Martin, You have very neatly contrived to side-step the issue of Moonilal’s motives and the repeated calls from Kamla and co. for the AG to resign. Is Faris on to something that may cost them (the UNC) in the end?
A nice ironic twist to this matter, considering that it was FAW’s need for increased security that triggered it in the first place, no?