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The Ma Pau Morvant Sports Club, almost certainly, will not participate in the 2015/16 Pro League competition, after an about-turn by the Ministry of Sport left the organisation without its registration fee.
And it is possible that the Ma Pau outfit, which participated in the Pro League between 2008 and 2011, may not have another shot at entrance in the local top flight until 2018.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
There is nothing unusual about a local football club attempting and failing to secure admittance into the Pro League. It happens almost every season.
But it is not every year that a Pro League application leads to a passive aggressive media battle between the Sport Minister and a football coach, suggestions of a pliant Permanent Secretary, a police investigation for fraud and a frustrated community.
The most appealing aspect of Ma Pau’s proposed return to the Pro League is a promised TT$8.5 million refurbishment of a sport ground in Morvant, which the club will share with fellow top flight neighbours, Caledonia AIA, and the community.
And outgoing Laventille East/Morvant MP Donna Cox had hoped her last act as the area’s Parliamentary representative would have been to announce the massive infrastructural work on the sporting ground in the humble community.
Cox said that, over the last five years, she had filed questions in Parliament and written the Ministry of Sport, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Planning for help to fix the uneven ground, which is unbearably dusty one minute and flooded the next.
“It just needed refurbishing and some work done,” Cox told Wired868. “A lot of people use it because they don’t have a proper alternative but there is a lot of flooding and it is uneven and so on…
“We talk about crime but, if we are really serious about crime, this is one of the areas that is at risk. But no work has been done in Laventille East/Morvant by the Ministry of Sport. No netball or basketball court, nothing.
“Malick Senior Comprehensive has to go outside its community to train because there is no proper ground here for them… And I also made a plug for it to be the home ground for Caledonia AIA.”
Cox claimed she got nowhere with her pleas for State resources to fix the community ground.
Last month, former Central FC coach Terry Fenwick approached the MP with a promise to completely renovate the ground and she jumped at the offer. There was one caveat.
Ma Pau wanted the Ministry of Sport to support its bid to return to the Pro League.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
“If the Ministry of Sport is not doing what it is supposed to do and a private company wants to come in and assist, then of course I support it,” said Cox. “I feel they should be allowed to get the job done. Why is it being stopped?
“Why didn’t the Ministry decide to partner with them and get it done?”
The catch was that Ma Pau wanted the Ministry of Sport to foot the bill for its Pro League return, which meant a TT$400,000 payment. The Ma Pau application, though, asked the Government for TT$450,000.
But why did Ma Pau, after promising to spend just over TT$3 million on a football ground before the end of year, not simply pay the Pro League’s comparatively paltry registration fee in the first place?
The Pro League gave Ma Pau chairman John Wallis an assurance that, should he choose to return to the competition, he would not have to pay a registration fee for a second time. But Wallis was not aware—or properly advised by his own staff—that this amnesty carried a deadline. And the club missed it two years ago.
Glen is a former Ma Pau player.
(Courtesy www.bbc.co.uk)
When Wallis and Fenwick sat down in June to discuss Ma Pau’s return to top flight football, there were, according to the coach, two conditions: the club must have a home ground—Wallis was frustrated by Ma Pau being asked to play home games all over the country during his previous Pro League stint—and he would not pay to regain his club’s Pro League status.
From mid-June, Fenwick went into overdrive, as he met and wooed counsellors and regional corporation representatives with Ma Pau’s vision for the Morvant ground.
Inevitably, Fenwick ended up at the Ministry of Sport and in front of his former employer and current Sport Minister, Brent Sancho.
Almost a decade earlier, Fenwick sacked Sancho at San Juan Jabloteh after he grew frustrated with the World Cup 2006 defender’s supposed fondness for night life. But they worked together twice at Central and, earlier this year, the English coach was at the helm when the “Couva Sharks” lifted the Caribbean Club Championship and Digicel Pro League and Pro Bowl titles.
Sancho was already Sport Minister when Fenwick returned to the Sharks and the UNC Senator claimed he had nothing to do with it. But an email between Fenwick, Sancho and his advisor Kevin Harrison suggested otherwise.
(Courtesy SPORTT Company)
At 8.30 am on Monday 23 March 2015, Fenwick asked Harrison, via email, to round his salary off at TT$30,000 per month and confirm his bonus for title success with the Sharks. But Sancho was the person who replied.
“We never agreed to rounding off to 30,” stated Sancho, from his Hotmail address. “It’s 28 and 10%. Please (do) not complicate this as time is of the essence.”
On March 24, Central confirmed that Fenwick would replace Serbian Zoran Vranes as head coach. Harrison claimed then that he made the decision and not Sancho.
Although Central won every available title under Fenwick, the relationship between the trio quickly soured.
At 10.52 am on 25 June 2015, Fenwick wrote a 515-word email to Sancho, Harrison and Central director Daren Mohamdally, in which the former England World Cup player ranted at the club’s supposed mismanagement and warned that the Sharks faced a thrashing from MLS club, LA Galaxy, at the CONCACAF Champions League.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
“Maybe, in my moment of weakness, I expected CFC (Central FC) to recognise the huge opportunity we have been presented to provide T&T football with a much needed ‘positive’ shot in the arm from the visit of LA Galaxy to Trinidad,” stated Fenwick, as he raged about the club’s failure to sort out players’ contracts and pre-season plans. “… It is unethical to have potential employees waiting on Management and the Board to have an epiphany regarding renewal of contracts! Do you have any regard for people’s lives and families noting that they all have responsibilities to their loved ones!
“I find it not only unprofessional but disingenuous to run your club with people/players’ welfare at your disposal and not communicate with them…
“For me and my players, it is demoralising and quite startling how individuals of self proclaimed pillars of society treat with such disregard their own work force.”
Exactly 31 minutes later, Central manager Jamie Along-Charles emailed Fenwick with bad news: “Dear Terry. The Board and Management of Central FC met to discuss your proposed contractual requirement. Unfortunately at this time they will not be able to facilitate your request.
“As such, they wish to sincerely thank you for your services rendered to the club.”
(Courtesy TT Pro League)
Regardless, Fenwick took coach Keon Trim along to explain to Sancho and Harrison—in their official capacities at the Ministry of Sport—why the Government should support Ma Pau’s bid to enter the Pro League.
There had been a precedent as, just last year, the Government paid registration fees for Point Fortin Civic. But Sancho, despite his football background, did not support Ma Pau’s bid.
What neither Sancho nor Harrison knew is that Fenwick had already gotten the necessary approval from Ministry of Sport Permanent Secretary Gillian Macintyre, who, as the Ministry’s financial officer, does not need Cabinet or Ministerial oversight within a TT$1 million limit.
“We went to (Sancho) with the complete proposal for Ma Pau and he gave us every possible excuse why he could not do it,” said Fenwick. “I gave them six different ways they could back it because of the level of funding put out by corporate Trinidad.
“Everything they said was a contradiction because we already had an agreement from the PS and we knew that Point Fortin had already received money before us.”
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
The Sport Ministry contacted Pro League CEO Dexter Skeene and advised that it chose to support Ma Pau’s bid and foot its supposed $450,000 registration fee.
There was no consensus as to why the Government wrote a cheque for $450,000 and not $400,000 and, arguably, it showed a flaw in the internal process at the Ministry.
Fenwick and a Sport Minister official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, claimed they were verbally told the fee for entry was $450,000 while the Pro League officials could not remember ever saying so.
Clearly, nobody got anything in writing from the Pro League about its registration fee, yet, despite that fact, a cheque was drawn up for Ma Pau. Furthermore, the cheque was made made out to Ma Pau Morvant Sports Club and not the Pro League.
Skeene, a former “Strike Squad” player, thought the incorrect figure was an error and not fraud.
“If I had any problems with Ma Pau’s application, I would not have put forward their application to the (Pro League board),” Skeene told Wired868. “Or I would have at least hinted (about the problem) to the board.”
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/ Wired868)
Harrison, despite his role with the Sport Ministry, was present at the Pro League’s board meeting and was stunned to hear that Ma Pau’s application was supported by the Ministry of Sport.
“I went to the Pro League meeting to present info on the delays in their subventions and so on,” Harrison told Wired868. “The Chairman said there was an application to enter the Pro League when they opened up the meeting and presented a cheque (from the Sport Ministry). I said I knew nothing about it at all and neither does the Minister.”
The Pro League clubs did not support Ma Pau’s bid and, ironically, there was grumbling by club representatives that Fenwick had used his influence with Sancho and Harrison to gain an unfair advantage.
In truth, Harrison was fuming and he sped straight back to the Ministry’s PS, Macintyre, for answers. The English football administrator claimed that he and Sancho implemented a system in which Harrison reviewed any cheques issued by the Sport Ministry for over $20,000.
“Once a cheque is issued, I would review the file to ensure all the processes are followed,” said Harrison. “This is something we put in place when we came into the Ministry because of the Life Sport thing to make sure we don’t issue money to the wrong people.”
Looking on is then Central FC operations director Kevin Harrison (top left).
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
Was Fenwick the “wrong people?”
Harrison questioned Macintyre about the Ma Pau cheque and asked her to withdraw it.
“When I went back to the Ministry, I saw the PS and asked if she issued a cheque for $450,000 to Ma Pau and she said yes,” said Harrison. “And I said it was declined and you can get it back. When we then looked at the file, we realised there were a number of discrepancies… So the PS decided to take it to the police.”
One of the suggestions, raised in a subsequent Trinidad Guardian article, was that Fenwick sent photographs that fraudulently misrepresented the state of the Morvant ground by showing a spanking track around it.
The bemused Englishman countered that he had merely shown the ground in its current condition and then used photographs of a foreign track to show what it would like after work was completed.
Macintyre never questioned Fenwick, though. She ordered the coach to return the cheque, which he did, and, although the PS herself signed off on the application, the police began interviewing Sport Ministry officials on the matter.
However, the Pro League never formally rejected Ma Pau’s proposal and Skeene contradicted Harrison’s report to the PS.
“I don’t know where (Harrison) is getting this idea about the finality of the thing,” said Skeene. “The Pro League always continues to assist teams and we continue to try to help Ma Pau to get into the league… It is a continuing process.”
Adams died on 30 December 2013 after failing to recover from a heart attack.
(Courtesy Allan V. Crane/Wired868)
Had Harrison overstepped his boundaries by instructing the PS to withdraw the cheque for Ma Pau?
And had Macintyre erred by taking instructions from Harrison rather than the Pro League Chairman or CEO?
Wired868 failed to reach Macintyre for comment. Harrison denied he was working against Ma Pau’s bid.
“We said we can’t find a way and he went around (Sancho and I) and submitted an application and he got turned down by the Pro League,” said Harrison. “I certainly had no say in how they voted because I wasn’t a voting member. It had nothing to do with me.”
Was there any ill-feeling between Sancho, Harrison and Fenwick?
“I don’t know (but) I see there is a post on Facebook calling me a liar,” said Harrison, in reference to a comment made by Fenwick’s wife and local attorney, Reyna Kowlessar. “I was told by two independent sources that Terry said he got money from the Ministry of Sport without me or Brent knowing about it. And he was laughing…”
Caledonia AIA coach Jamaal Shabazz said he abstained from the vote when Ma Pau’s application was raised before the Pro League board. Since then, he met with Fenwick and has been rallying other clubs to support Ma Pau.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/ Wired868)
“I had heard rumours that the regional corporation had given the ground in our Morvant community to Ma Pau and I abstained at that point to get more clarity,” Shabazz told Wired868. “Now that I have information to the contrary, I feel it is necessary for Caledonia to support Ma Pau’s entry into the League…
“The Ma Pau franchise would be able to employ at least 35 of our grassroots people and, while politicians continue to promise, the young people have to (be able to) eat.”
Shabazz suggested that Ma Pau might win a second vote from Pro League clubs but claimed the team’s bid was being undermined by “senior officials at the Sport Ministry.”
“Each club owner has their say and their vote and, because we own the league, we can change our minds as we have done and amend rules according to the situations that we face,” said Shabazz. “I’m hearing that there are senior officials in the Ministry who are trying to put stumbling blocks. I have spoken to one or two clubs who said that senior officials have insinuated that Terry Fenwick did not use proper information to secure the Ministry’s help…
North East Stars coach Angus Eve is in the foreground.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
“I can understand if you stop a man from doing bad. So if Fenwick trying to do something bad, I can understand (that) they stop it. But he is trying to do something good, so I can’t see why they want to stop him.
“And I am saying this as no friend of Terry Fenwick and it angers me when people think for some reason I shouldn’t stand up for him.
“I am not standing up for him, I am standing up for fair play in football. This is our livelihood and we have to make this industry work.”
Shabazz suggested that the Pro League needs Fenwick at least as much as he needs the Pro League.
“I see Terry Fenwick as a warrior like us and he brings a certain amount of competitiveness and finesse as a coach in the league,” said Shabazz. “He is second only to Stuart Charles (Fevrier) in terms of winning titles in the Pro League and for that he has my respect… Caledonia would vote in favour of Ma Pau, despite the fact that on the field I am a fierce competitor against Terry Fenwick.
Looking on is W Connection coach Stuart Charles-Fevrier.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
“We may never be friends but I think he has a place in Trinidad and Tobago’s football. And, as a Muslim, I have a command from Allah to stand up for justice.
“Allah says: ‘Oh ye who believe, stand up firmly for justice, even if it is against yourself.’ Despite my combative vibes with Mr Fenwick, I think in fairness to the work he has done, he should be in the league.”
However, Skeene said the time-consuming furore within the Ministry of Sport over Ma Pau’s application has probably killed the team’s chances of playing in the Pro League this season.
The Pro League is due to kick off with a Digicel Charity Shield fixture on September 11 while the official competition is scheduled to begin on September 25.
“I think there was a remote possibility for Ma Pau to come into the league last month,” said Skeene. “It was very tight. Right now, it would probably be next season.”
The new TTFA constitution, which was approved by its executive committee but must still make its way through the regional associations, calls for a promotion and relegation system between the Pro League and National Super League.
Looking on is Edinburgh goalkeeper Joel Sansavior.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
When that occurs, clubs will have to earn their entrance into the top flight by slogging it out in the Super League, which now has two divisions.
It would mean that Ma Pau and other ambitious clubs must spend at least two years battling their way past over 30 community teams before they can even apply to the Pro League.
“The Pro League board still has to finalise the matter of promotion and relegation,” said Skeene. “We are looking to have a discussion with the TTFA. I would like it to (have promotion) but we have to have discussions… It will place a totally different dimension on things.”
It means that local football fans might have a long wait before they see Fenwick coaching in the top flight again.
Shabazz would miss the combative Englishman, although there may be just as many rivals who would say ‘good riddance.’ Fenwick, outspoken, combative and provocative, has always split opinions in the local game, even though his titles speak for themselves.
(Courtesy Allan V Crane/Wired868)
Cox suggested that Morvant/Laventille would be the biggest losers, though.
“I am really disappointed with all the foolishness that is going on,” said Cox. “Anybody who wants to do something to uplift the grounds, I am very grateful for it… If someone is willing to pump money into sport, then shouldn’t (the Ministry of Sport) be happy?
“There must be some underlying confusion going on that we do not know about. I don’t think any right-thinking person will not want that to happen.”
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Lasana Liburd is the managing director and chief editor at Wired868.com and a journalist with over 20 years experience at several Trinidad and Tobago and international publications including Play the Game, World Soccer, UK Guardian and the Trinidad Express.
Do new companies not need time to start generating profit Chabeth Haynes? I think it would be shortsighted to drop the Pro League before you are certain that you analysed the issues it faces and tried to correct them.
In a best case scenario, the clubs would do that itself. But this industry is too important to just let die.
Lasana Liburd, I didn’t say you said he disagreed with me. He said I was myopic but then agreed with me. Idk what that makes him. Hahahaha!
And diversify from oil and gas means find other revenue streams for the country… not ways to give private companies more money because they not working hard enough to raise funds themselves.
Sport does not generate revenues in a direct tangible sense in Trinidad Chabeth Haynes. Just like calypso. We established that already.
Besides, calypso was around since before Independence. The Pro League is 15 years old.
I never said he was disagreeing with you Chabeth Haynes. Lol. And I agree that the season starts at the wrong time.
But I disagree that the Gov’t should not pay salaries if that is what this industry needs.
We always talk about diversifying from oil and gas. But do we consider what that means and the different ways it can be done?
Chabeth Haynes – my apologies. Please forgive me:-) First time interacting with you on this blog. I know better now.
Lasana, but Scotty is agreeing with me that the state should not be funding the pro league in perpetuity. And again, how long is long enough? If you are in a situation for 15 years and not getting the results you want, you continue in the exact same situation or make adjustments? And if football is generating so much revenue, why does the government need to be giving teams $87,000 a month?
But Lasana Liburd, I never said the government should not be involved at all. I said the government should not pay the salaries of employees in private companies. Added to which, in an earlier comment I said the games should be aired on CNMG to help spark interest in the league and then maybe eventually ppl will start going to the games.
But on a point of marketing… why doesn’t the league’s season start during the August vacation when ppl are looking for stuff to do with their families instead of at the end of September when ppl are busy and tired already? Wouldn’t an earlier start in the year also help with not being in the offseason during the Concacaf Champions league?
Actually, Pro League coaches and players do help run Ministry of Sport camps Carlos Lee. I’m not sure how many other ways there is synergy. But I agree with your points.
Chabeth Haynes, you have made a good case for why the Government should help market the Pro League eh. They can start by giving them a certain amount of advertising space on Gov’t-owned media companies and even covering their matches.
That way the Govt would ensure that they get something back too.
I agree the clubs should do more. But you cannot give a man barely enough money to stay afloat and then berate him for not running the business like Microsoft.
Lol! lady..
Carlos Lee, I am female and I feel like I’ve contributed greatly to this discussion. Why you can’t include me in your praise about the value of the discussion? ??
(Just teasing here.)
Interesting developments here….forget the blah blah on social responsibility etc..but the first paragraph is very telling
Wayne Caesar, it is the responsibility of the Pro League and the respective teams to market the league so that people come to the games.
If a business does nothing to attract customers, it cannot just go to the government and say “we’re having a tough time. Please pay our employees.” That is not what private enterprise is about or how it should function. Private enterprise is an investment where you see returns over a period of time. That is the nature of the beast.
And sport business is actually a little easier than say they restaurant business because clubs can get brand sponsorship. These clubs need to work harder to make their business profitable. Not just expect the government to give them $87,000 every month. If your restaurant is failing you shut it down (and people lose their jobs and the government doesn’t intervene because it thinks people will turn to a life of crime) or you sell it, and if the government sees real value in it, then yes, they can buy it.
Excellent discussions fellas. I had to attend to business so had to drop out from the blog for a bit. From assessing the above comments one thing that is clear and something we all seem to agree with is that football is in important sport in TnT, and a viable professional league is something that is beneficial to have. It’s good for the development of our national teams and as an employment source for our people. Where opinions seem to diverge is with respect to how should the pro league and pro league teams be funded and what role the government should play? Personally, I think government has a role to play, but not necessarily by financially footing the bill to sustain the pro league and por league teams, thereby making it another social welfare program, similar to the old “10-days” system. Government’s involvement should be in areas such as the creation of stronger or better incentives/policies to encourage the business sector and wealthy individuals to embrace their corporate social responsibilies (CSR). Tax breaks is one way to go, but as Lasana indicated earlier this incentve is already in place, but not fully embraced by the business community. Government could help to encourage better update of the CSR concept. This could be done with carrots and with a sticks. From a stick point of view, no state contracts should be awarded to business entities with a poor or negligible CSR track record. Alternatively, every state contract could come with some type of CSR component, where potential contractors, as part of the application process, must highlight how they will improve the conditions and well-being of the people in the community where they operate. This could involve things like refurbishment of football fields in the community; sponsorship of sporting and /or cultural groups; and adoption of and partnership with community schools, just to highlight a few. Government could also support football by partnering with pro league teams to conduct football and other sporting camps on evenings, weekends, and during the summer. Programs like the above would serve as excellent ways to help stem the crime wave, by helping to keep our youths pre-occupied with positive activities within their communities. These camps, which could be full day camps during the summer vacation period, would also serve as an excellent day care for working parents, providing a safe haven for their kids. How would the pro league teams benefit? Well, they will not conduct these camps for free, they will compete for funding / contracts to run the camps on behalf of the government, thereby raising significant revenues, which can then be reinvested in their organizations.
Lets think as we should, this is just food for thought why not take all the monies from gambling and give half to sport and the other half to culture, then no tax payers money will be wasted? sense? thats is what England does with theirs. Ha Ha Ha.
Chabeth Haynes……Your Honour,I rest my case!!!!! That is exactly my point. If no-one goes to the game, I would like to hear your suggestions as to how they should maintain themselves. There are games on different days at different times, you didn’t go to any because you had training or couldn’t find anyone to go with you. I am not speaking about anything “TECHNICAL” here. I have no more to say on this, I will continue reading your comments.
Here is the Ma Pau release thanks to Keith Clement:
Ma Pau Responds
From recent reports in the press it would appear that Ma Pau has somehow unwittingly become caught up in the imbroglio between Terry Fenwick and other persons unconnected to Ma Pau and the Ministry of Sport
An examination of the history of this matter is necessary so as to bring proper perspective to the public matter. Ma Pau Sports Club is an organisation which gave years of service to the poor and downtrodden from depressed communities in Trinidad and Tobago. This football club has previously operated in the pro league. However, for reasons which are not now relevant Ma Pau Sports club took a hiatus from the pro league. As is customary with arrangements of this kind Ma Pau asked that its status as a pro league club be voluntarily suspended for the usual period.
After some time Ma Pau Sports club applied to the pro league to be rejoined as a member. At the same time Terry Fenwick applied to the Ministry of Sport for a registration grant to be paid in order to facilitate the club in rejoining the pro league. The grant funding was indeed paid by the Ministry to facilitate the payment of the registration fee. However, it was subsequently communicated to us by the Pro League that Ma Pau’s application was rejected by a vote of 3 against 1 for and 1 abstention. In the circumstances Ma Pau immediately issued a cheque in the identical amount to return the funds to the Ministry. Thus, in this regard Ma Pau stands entirely blameless.
Ma Pau wishes to place on record that Mr. Terry Fenwick is not now nor has been the Coach of Ma Pau S.C. Mr. Fenwick sought to enter into an arrangement with Ma Pau to manage the Football team if it were elected into the pro league. The team was not and our arrangement with Mr. Fenwick ended.
The police has shown our ex chairman, Mr. Kenroy Phillips, an application for $150,000.00 for the development of youth football. Mr. Phillips has confirmed that the signature which purports to be his on the application is indeed a forgery. Ma Pau F.C. has never requested such monies from the Ministry nor has it received any such monies.
This apparent attempt to defraud the Ministry by the use of a forged application herein is known to the Police. Ma Pau expects the police to conduct a swift and fair investigation into this matter and to bring to justice the perpetrators of this dastardly act.
Ma Pau is well known throughout Trinidad and Tobago as being a leader in the area of social responsibility of corporate entities. Ma Pau has consistently invested in communities and individuals. Ma Pau takes very seriously its role and responsibility of assisting the underprivileged of society and generally of serving the society as a whole. Ma Pau has spent the last twenty years cultivating its excellent name and reputation and its staff, management and customers are indeed saddened to see that an attempt to sully this good name is being made by the fraudulent act of some.
Over the years Ma Pau has built a pristine name synonymous with fairness, integrity and a commitment to social responsibility and will not lightly tolerate any attempt to sully this good name and reputation.
When I made comparisons to the BBC or calypso I meant Chabeth Haynes. But go see about your business before you turn to a life of crime! Lol
There is a reason that there is a place called Charlie King junction today in Fyzabad. You all not looking at the thing from the eyes of those who need that subsidy and infrastructure to build an industry. Charlie King dead but he lives in a system that wants to deny certain sectors opportunity. Ok Chabeth go and read about Butler he understood economics and bread and butter politics
Hahahaha! Jamaal Shabazz, I have to go otherwise I will be the one ending up hungry and neither you nor Lasana Liburd will be there to feed me and I don’t want to be forced to turn to crime at this age.
Me, shift goal posts? I said from the beginning that I object to a public policy stance where the state is paying the salaries of employees of a private company. In any sector. That position is unchanged.
Although Chabeth kept trying to move the goalposts. Lol.
But it was a nice and very interesting chat Kendall Tull, Chabeth Haynes and Carlos Lee. I enjoyed it as always.
Tubal Uriah Buzz Butler understood this thing clear clear clear.
The State pays for the hosting of the shows too. The receipts goes to the calypso body and not back to the State.
So the State does not make any money directly from calypso.
And I already tried to point out the social benefit of the Pro League as well as the use of Gov’t stadia and spin offs to taxi drivers, sport stores, concession stands, etc.
Chabeth yu cannot just run off and leave we hungry.
But Lasana Liburd, how much money is going to calypso tents? and the state has the opportunity to make back the money, at least in part, when state entities host calypso shows – calypso fiesta, dimanche gras etc etc. How is the state making back the money it gives to these pro league clubs?
And are calypsonians not also “hardback men?”
I agree with your social analysis Jamaal Shabazz. Our opinions divert on how and when we should start providing for the masses. Thanks again. Bye.
Chabeth Haynes, are the calypso tents not all private entities just like the clubs? Fair point on white collar crime btw.
And yes, our flagship is sport and culture. Please show me how much money the government is giving to PRIVATE companies in culture with no end in sight.
When we want to be fair and proper and all transparent and fiscal and all the nice words. We must first remember Lasana that when a child hungry it have to be fed. And a people who has been systematically been at the bottom of the economic ladder will not just come out of their condition. We will have the Prof Carlos and the Bro Tull who did good for themselves but in terms of the masses provisions need to be made and things put in place to build an industry that can employ them. Or else when you hungry and you have no food and you see a man feeding his dog steak. You would be inclined to go and take the steak from the dog to feed your family.
What, Lasana? Now you’re talking about white collar crime? You think the pro league is helping with that?
It is never too late Chabeth Haynes. I don’t think so at all. I have interviewed loads of people who made life altering decisions in their late 20s and 30s.
Ok. But seriously, thank you both for interacting with me. I really have to go and attend to life off of Facebook now.
And just one note… Jamaal was coming over to my side before you came back on Lasana.
Chabeth Haynes, gangs are barely responsible for a fraction of the crime in this country. So I would say the age that young men join gangs isn’t that relevant.
A band of lawyers just put down a $12 million heist. We need to see when they passed the bar. Lol.
And it isn’t that the UK has more money. We need to understand their thinking.
Our flagship in Trinidad is sport and culture. That is how we project ourselves internationally. And we should consider that in how we spend.
I think it worthwhile for the Gov’t to pump more money into both fields. Once, as Kendall Tull said, there is a cogent plan and accountability.
Jamaal Shabazz, a level playing field cannot be created when ppl are adults. It needs to happen when they are children.
True on BBC, Kendall Tull. But the point is at some stage the British Government saw value in the BBC.
Of course the average citizen there would not understand it. BBC was Britain’s flag in the rest of the world. Our impression of Brits is partly informed by BBC’s quality. The Gov’t understood that.
The point stands that an industry can be worth more its tangible returns on the dollar.
Lasana, most ppl who join gangs are doing so AFTER the age of 25? I never said in ALL cases, I said for the most part.
And I never said the BBC was a good investment by the state. In fact, there was and IMF (I think it was IMF) report years ago that said the state here should stop funding a local media outfit. I don’t see why that philosophy shouldn’t apply to the BBC. But in any case, 1. the British have more money than us and 2. are you saying that the public service provided by the BBC is comparable to what the pro league is doing for us here?
(we getting tangential with this dialogue now eh. lol)
Lol. I don’t buy doubles from just anyone Jamaal Shabazz. I can’t promise you anything there!
15 years is joke when you not playing on a level playing field. We at the bottom of the hill trying to kick the ball up the hill it cannot reach unless someone carry it up. Better we go and sell clothe and doubles and see if we could own buildings from that in pos and chaguanas. For you to compete you need a level playing field. Eric Williams children love him show undying loyalty to him especially in Laventille East and West and we dont have any facilities. And now we getting a little oxygen just to stay alive Chabeth want to pull the plug. I going and sell clothe yes. Way the doubles man boy
I agree with you Kendall Tull. I fully endorse a proper plan for how assistance is provided. I just don’t agree that the Pro League should be cut loose to survive based on the whims of the private sector. Not yet anyway. And not for some years well.
Btw Chabeth Haynes, Serie A is one of the biggest leagues in the world and it still operates on State assistance. I think only one team in the whole top flight owns the stadium it plays in. They all generally play on State facilities.
Following the mistakes of others doesn’t make any sense though. The BBC model is a nonsense especially now.
People don’t get into crime after 25? I would love to see your stats there Chabeth Haynes. Lol. That isn’t true at all. In many cases, crime is a result of need and opportunity.
Britain is not short of proper media houses. So why pay for the BBC?
It is an example that sometimes State investment is about more than getting its money back. And I don’t see why people shouldn’t bear those things in mind in this thread.
If you make it sound preposterous that the Gov’t would be spending taxpayers dollars on the Pro League after 15 years, why is it irrelevant to speak of British taxpayers funding the BBC after decades? I’m sure plenty of our sugar money went into the BBC too.
The BBC funding is actually a major topic right now in the UK and is likely to change in the near future. Brazil has wasted billions builing stadia that have no business case so I don’t accept that example.
And with all due respect Lasana, 500 people are irrelevant in the scheme of things so you need a better argument. We just vilified the PP administration for paying 200 employees of a private company but it’s ok for 500? Just asking.
There has to be a cogent plan because we cannot just continue to spend money without one. My offer stands regarding the planning session.
Lasana Liburd, if the pro league has been around for 15 years and the clubs are still reliant on the state for operation, the the model is clearly not working.
The British pay a specific tax to fund the BBC. And this is done to keep the BBC commercial free and free of corporate influence so I really don’t think the two situations are comparable.
Anybody who is getting into crime in this country, for the most part, isn’t doing so at 25. It happens much younger so I think the state’s investment would be much more useful at the younger level but I understand what you are saying about having the pro league as the next level for kids to look forward to.
I think we are clear on each other’s position and we still disagree. Hahaha! But at least now, you’re talking about an exit date. Still, thanks to you and Jamaal Shabazz for the dialogue.
The Pro League has been here since the start of the century Chabeth Haynes. I wish the Sport Minister would consider what it needs to get to the next level and assist with that. Money isn’t everything and there are other crucial needs.
To spend on the grassroots level is great but the young players must have something to progress to and that is what the Pro League is.
Chabeth Haynes and Kendall Tull, the British government still funds the BBC but does not run it. And there are many employees there who get great salaries.
The reality is we cannot afford to leave every industry to operate on the whims and fancies of the private sector.
Carlos Lee, there is already a tax break for companies to get involved in sport. A good question might be how many companies pay the appropriate level of tax to begin with.
And the Brazil Gov’t built most of the stadia in the country and injected billions up until the 1970s. And, yes, paid private employees too. Players like Pele and Diego Maradona were partly paid by State companies while they were players there.
Age 19 to 29 might be hardback men in sport. But those are young men in society.
For me, the Gov’t does have a social responsibility here. If the industry crumbles what are those 250 to 500 people directly involved in it going to do?
Not to mention the children and parents and relatives and all the spin offs?
The Pro League has gotten enough money to stumble on but not enough to kick on. I think it better to analyse what will help local football get to the next level and then provide it, have oversight and plan your exit date.
Is there any transparency here? Do the clubs produce audited financials? Are the profits made from transfer fees channelled back into the club? Do they have a strategic plan on how they intend to move to sustainability? Is there a plan for the league as a whole in that regard? Sports clubs can make money from the micro scale upward. I refuse to accept the notion that state funding in perpetuity is a requirement for a successful league. I also dismiss the Argentine example because that was under a dictatorship in the 80s and there was no accountability for state funds. Argentina is still paying the price for that today so emulating that in any form is madness.
I tell you what Lasana, I have some time at the moment. I am willing to spend some of it working with a task force to brainstorm a viable strategy for taking our sport forward. Pull in anybody you think can add value but there needs to be broad representation of the stakeholders.
You are wasting your time Chabeth. They have a different perspective that is solely based on football. I think that they all take your point about the need for more development at the grassroots level though.
And Wayne Caesar – how many games she attends isn’t relevant to the validity of the points she raised. The fact is in the face of the economic times,we need to spend wiser. There is no doubt that spending at the grassroots level will reach a larger audience than the funding of a Pro League.
For my part, I don’t see any real effort to run football as a business starting from the TTFA. And Chabeth – don’t be fooled by the non-profit registration. That in no way means that making money isn’t what they aim to do. FIFA is a non-profit organisation that rakes in billions of dollars that funds the lifestyles of the Executive.
To be fair, Lasana did allude to the need for oversight but if the structure is right, we can reduce that requirement.
Wayne Caesar, none! But I know absolutely nobody who will go to a pro league game with me and I don’t feel like going by myself. Also, my schedule doesn’t always permit. Full disclosure: I am a coach in another sport and my practice times often clash with league games. For example I can’t go to the charity shield game tonight as I have practice. But if the games were on TV, even delayed I would watch.
But you don’t have to go to a game to have a valid opinion on a public policy issue. This isn’t about the technical side of football. It’s about the public policy aspect of the pro league.
However I telling you if the Pro League clubs get community stadia we do need state funds.