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Lasana Liburd I was referring to the comment by someone that somewhat ridiculed the Brazilian/South American leagues back then
Platini better than Zidane? .
Only in the bribery and kickback world
Was Zidane better than Platini? I saw Platimi and he was no joke.. Midfield general and a far better goalscorer than Zidane.. Was also the best free kick specialist of his generation.. Alongside Zico. People have short memories and they’re hypnotised by the present superstars who play in a era when you could blow a kiss and it’s a foul. Messi better than Maradona? What era or what damn year.. Maradona is the most gifted player to have walked this earth and WILL score 50-60 goals a season in this day and age.. Which defence would stop Maradona? Christiano Ronaldo? He is one of the greatest goal scorers but his all round game is found wanting at times.. This last euro he was so average; hopelessly greedy..
Ok. Santos got two finals while Pele was there and they won both. Estudiantes got to three finals in a row in the 1960s and Penarol got to three and won two.
So won’t you say Penarol’s success eclipsed Santos? And in the 1960s when Pele was at his best, Argentina clubs got to five World Cup championship finals and Uruguay clubs got to three.
So based on that, Pele’s Santos was definitely not the best in the world for that period unless you restrict it to only between 1962 and 1963.
World Club champions Lasana Liburd
Kelvin Jack, on what evidence do you say that Pele’s Santos was the best team in the world?
Ronaldo obviously was just an outrageous talent.. Just supremely gifted. But there are some who question Pele’s greatness. Listen guys..the greats, Beckenbauer, Eusebio, Cruyff, Moore, Zagalo… I can go on and on. Like Ronaldo.. Pele would score a huge amount of goals in today’s game.. Also.. Someone mentioned Pele didn’t play in the top leagues.. I’m sorry but that’s nonsense. He later in the league in the country who were the undisputed champions of football. Santos at that time was the worlds greatest club side. Some people are clouded by the players of today, many of whom that are bang average.
I was lucky too see all the greats of the last era and the current one play live in competitive matches.
Messi accomplished the most. But to be honest, the Brazilian Ronaldo was the most electric.
…let us bow our heads…
But Kelvin Jack if you really know your football history eh, most of those nowadays players especially some people that we know football God Messi wouldn’t have lasted in the days of the greatest football player in the universe and others because anything was accepted with respect to the tackles by some of the most brutal defenders that existed until the rules was charged to protect these nowadays professional players and the owners of the professional teams investments. Them really good yes
I hear you on that, Uncle Earl. But as much as I’m not a fan of Messi, I still think that he would be just as effective if attacking players lacked the same level of protection today as back then.
As for Ronaldo Fenomeno, who was going to tackle him let alone catch him say his peak?
Well the Italian bruiser Gentele wudda really have Messi number eh hahaha
If the referee is atrocious…
Oh gosh mam yuh not easy nah, yuh have a plaster for every sore eh, ah going and take a lime and get back to you later eh Mr Live Wire hahahaha
Garrincha is probably the greatest match-winner in the game’s history. Once he was fit and his head was in the right place, teams he played for were almost unbeatable – in the games where he and Pele played together, Brazil NEVER lost.
Ronaldo is without question the most devastating striker of the last 40 years.. No one can compare. People say you can’t compare generations.. That’s rubbish. Stevie Wonder could see that in today’s game he would score 50 goals a season in La liga and maybe close to 60 in the Premier League. THATS NOT AN EXAGGERATION
Alyuh make certain that alyuh attend Mr Live Wire football festival in January eh, ah coming with meh flat screen TV and video and when alyuh see some of the other videos that I have with my greatest player in the universe eh, alyuh will hold alyuh heads and bawl eh, and I hope that Mr Ambassador will be there also and don’t forget to walk with your boots eh Dr Amery Browne hahaha
And that is the problem with alyuh nowadays folks eh, and that is to bad. Alyuh really good yes hahahaaha
I’ve never had the pleasure to see them play in the flesh but the above-mentioned are the greatest of all time regardless of how you rank them.
What’s even more amazing is that Pele has often said that there’d have been no Pele without Garrincha.
A rare moment of honesty from Pele then… Lol
Ronaldo is the greatest ever… I’ve never seen Pele play live… It’s always been tapes… I’ve seen Maradonna though… And I have NEVER seen a player like Ronaldo. As good as Pele and Maradonna were… Neither was called ‘El Phenomeno’
If we go with adjectives does phenom carry more weight than the king. If we use that her in Brazil Adriano was called the Emperor so was he greater than Pele.
Pele is still the king… Adriano is a washed up has been… Bout Emperor…
Ronaldo greater than who eh, look alyuh try alyuh best eh, he couldn’t even fit in the shoes of my two greatest Brazilians. Them really good yes
What size Pele wore? Lol
Size “better than everyone else”
Lol. That in the shelf next to the flying pigs?
They’re in the drawer beneath the mantle supporting his THREE World Cup trophies.
🙄🙄🙄 Thought you had better than that. Dunga has a World Cup trophy and Socrates doesn’t. Case closed?
Pele only ever played one complete World Cup. 1970. But I ent getting in this debate again. Lol.
Hahahahaha Mr Live Wire really good yes.
Let’s not forget why he only played one complete World Cup. He was hacked to pieces in one because he was the most feared opposing player (and worse yet he was truly BLACK).
As a child of the 70’s, to me Pele stood head and shoulders above all other players. I hold that view still.
Colin Clarke, my view is based on actual footage and not emotion. And it isn’t about why he didn’t play. You judge someone based on what they did not on what they might have done.
If you search pele in this group, you will see actual 90 minute footage. or you can find it in YouTube.
It will help if you check one or two Pele games for Brazil. 90 minutes and not highlights. And then come tell me what you think and if he was better than Ronaldo, Diego or Messi.
Cool. All kicks aside (pun unintended), my view was based on footage that I’ve seen and books that I’ve read over the years, as well as the assessment of his peers and footballers who came after him.
So you’re positing that he was a brilliant and creative opportunist more than the greatest “player”?
And if your football God Messi was hacked the same way as the greatest football player in the universe eh back in the days eh, his football career would have been a very short one eh Mr Live Wire. Alyuh really good yes hahahaha
Colin Clarke, are you talking about highlights or actual full match football? Because that’s a big difference.
I think Pele was a quick, strong, dangerous forward. He was not the best at every position and all that nonsense because his passing range was ordinary. His technique was not outer-wordly either.
He was terrific in the air and dangerous around the air. A top centre forward. But I think there have been more better players since. Maybe Garrincha was better even then.
I even watched Didi play full games and noticed how flustered he became when opponents pressed him.
Like I said though, check actual match footage. I’m sure it will make a difference.
Messi is tougher than you think. But that era was definitely more brutal. The 1980s too. He would have adjusted though. Because he is a genius. Just like Pele would have adapted to the fitness demands and packed defences of today. No question.
I hear you. My question was a genuine one based on your having a more informed position than mine regarding the legacy of his playmaking throughout an entire match.
I think Pele’s was a centre forward rather than a playmaker. He was an excellent forward. Rivelino was easily the most creative player in that team in terms of creating chances for others.
Could someone explain to my why Pele is considered the greatest?
3 WC titles?
He never played I the best leagues in the world. ..in fact it is alleged when he was approaching 1000 goals opposing teams use to give him a blye and let him score
3. Whereas we would have seen Ronaldo live…week in week out..who has really seen 10 games. ..10 whole games of Pele?
I agree…ronaldo is brasil greatest ever
Most just parrot Pele because well…their father said so… whose uncle said so…neither having actually see 5pele games
“He never played I the best leagues in the world”
When Pele played in the 50’s and 60’s, the Brazilian league was THE BEST LEAGUE in the world.
No Christian Hume. It wasn’t. That’s why Didi, Di Stefano and the greats were heading to Europe from since the 1960s. The brazilian league was better than today. But the top players were still heading for Europe.
Heading to Europe because it was the best or for money?
The Real Madrid team that Didi played in also had Di Stefano and Puskas. If you think Pele’s Santos would have beaten them, you need to put that drink down! Lol.
Whatever reason they went for, it was the best because it had the best players.
Well Pele’s Santos won the Intercontinental Cup twice 62/63 while Di Stefano’s Madrid won it once 1960. They never faced each other. In 1968 Madrid withdrew from the intercontinental Supercup featuring santos, Inter, penarol, racing. Santos and Pele won. So opinions are opinions. We can only speculate.
If they were the BEST then why did benfica win the european cup. And if benfica was the better than the best why couldnt they beat pele’s santos……Imma just sip my tea
Ok. In the 1960s when Pele was in his pomp, South America led 6-4 in World Club Championships when you tally up. Santos won two of those. And the exportation of players wasn’t as widespread as it became in the 1980s and beyond.
But even then the best South American players had begun to go to Europe.
Ok Stephon Nicholas and Christian Hume, in the 1960s Brazil got to two World Cup finals, Uruguay got to three and Argentina got to five!
So if you want to judge greatness based on that then not only was Brazil not the best league in the world but they were only the third best on their own continent!
I’m just saying you can’t say with conviction that Europe league was so much greater. Because the evidence is there that Santos held its own against Europe’s best. It was YOU who said Santos couldn’t beat di stefano and didi madrid. NOT ME.
I merely showed you santos beat a team that was better than a real madrid boasting di stefano and didi two years in a row. And you changing the narrative without addressing the point i made to DIRECTLY counter your point. 😛
Stephon, that Real Madrid team was in the late 1960s. It is not the same team you are talking about. But allow me to double check.
Stephon Nicholas, Di Stefano joined in 1953 and they won the European Cup with the team I mentioned from 1955 to 1960.
So to counter your counter, they didn’t lose to Benfica.
“The Real Madrid team that Didi played in also had Di Stefano and Puskas. If you think Pele’s Santos would have beaten them, you need to put that drink down! Lol.”
OF COURSE I think Pele’s Santos would have beaten that team – Garrincha’s Botafogo would have beaten them too.
Well, we will never know as they were in different eras. I’m surprised that you think they would have Stephon. No matter.
I’ve to scroll up to see what the hell we started debating here in the first place… Lol.
Oh right. That it was the best league in the world. The Brazilian league was stronger then. But the evidence we see here doesn’t say it was the best in the world.
Well the south American teams use to kick down everybody..especially Penerol ….so the European teams stop taking it on..
Lasana Liburd Personally i don’t know that they would have. They didn’t face each other (maybe friendlies?) but i know they would have more than held their own. I can only go by what I’ve heard and read. And I’m seeing stats whow Santos won the intercontinental cup a couple times while both Didi and Di stefano and puskas played for them. So that only strengthens my belief that Santos was as good or better than europe’s elite
Well, I said that Real’s heyday was in between 1955 and 1960 Stephon. You giving me real work here. Lol
Ok. When Benfica beat Madrid Didi had left the club, Puskas was 35 and Di Stefano was 36. That was not their era.
Btw…we are going to judge the strength of a league by the intercontinental winners?..by auch metric la liga is far superior to the premiership
I think La Liga probably is superior to be fair…
European heyday* Lasana Liburd
Lawdddd look the argument Shaun Lynch want to start lol
Shaun Lynch, could you start a separate thread for that? I foresee an epic discussion.
Groan. Don’t encourage that Colin. Lol. If you do Shaun, start it with some analysis from creditable source or something.
Not Goal eh. Lol
Goal.com, the Sun of all Internet football sites.
More like the unsatisfying fast food of the football world. Totally unbothered by their lack of substance and inaccuracies.
Lasana.. Pele is the greatest end of
What people don’t understand is that a big part of the reason why Pele is regarded as the “greatest ever” is because of his technical completeness as a footballer. There was NO weak point in is game – NONE. All the other pretenders to the throne have easily identifiable aspects of their game missing.
The only other legends that I would describe as ‘”technically complete” are Johan Cruyff and Cristian Ronaldo.
I may have to look at some more tapes of and read some more accounts of Di Stefano to see if his name may be put in there as well.
Technically complete? .. so he wad a good tackler and defender?
Yes he was. Do your research beyond youtube clips.
Christian Hume, he was not. Go watch full match footage of Pele. He was not a number 10 as we know it today.
His passing range was far from special and was inferior to Rivelino by some distance.
You guys ever considered that you are basing most of your reverence on hand-me down stories, hype and highlights?
Most people grew up hearing that Pele was incomparable by their daddies and they grew up with that like a religion. Those who have eyes let them see. For me, Pele is only better than Ronaldo and Romario in one category. His heading ability.
Pele’s tackling was hardly ever needed Lasana – doesn’t mean he was not a good tackler. As I told Lynch, do your research beyond youtube clips….you’ll learn some other things…..
So you think I’m better off not basing my opinion on my own eyes and full matches Christian Hume? How does that make sense? What is better for me to get a clear impression than my own eyes?
What exactly are you basing your assessment on?
Unfortunately not enough recorded games for me to research…books et al are all biased… I mean if it was cricket or baseball …fine…a sport with alot of stats. .. but football is different
“For me, Pele is only better than Ronaldo and Romario in one category. – His heading ability”
There is absolutely no comparison between Romario and Pele as dribblers.
Pele has morphed into a religion. That’s the problem.
I watch, and I READ.
Exactly what does Christian Hume base his assessment on?
There are games Shaun Lynch. We found a few and I posted here. Full games. And they do not lend to any of your suggestions.
Pele is a religion? I guess Maradona is pure academic studies and research, right?
And he was like the second black man hero after Ali….added more to his ayra
I can find highlights that make Quaresma look like the best player alive. Meaningless. Maradona’s greatness can be seen in full games. I checked those too to see if he was overrated. He wasn’t.
In fact, when I did my research using my eyes and not someone else’s opinion or highlights, I realised Ruud Gullit was even better than I thought. Gullit was probably underrated because of the other greats in his era.
He grows when you see him a second time through cold eyes. Rivelino too. He was a modern player despite playing in the late 60s and early 70s.
Lasana.. Sorry bro. Your points are taken but they’re wrong. We are mesmerised by these modern players and hype around them today. The greats all refer to Pele as the best ever.. No one here could say they saw Pele over 20 years.. TWENTY.. His durability was astonishing. His goal scoring was stunning. Yes., technically perfect. We all depend on respected opinions.. It’s how those born after a period can refer and compare. Just reading Pele’s profile on Wikipedia is an experience. The way respected players and managers talk about the man is sobering. Pele is number 1.. Number 1…Maradona 2.. Messi 3… Ronaldo 4.. Christiano? The greediest footballer to have lived? I don’t know..
Any of what suggestions Lasana Liburd?
I have always said not only have I seen messi best…but also his worst.
I’m sure nowhere cam we see Pele’s worst.. so opinion is based generally on a selection bias
Steups. What hype Kelvin? I’m talking about my own eyes. When I put the Pele videos up you hardly said a word about what you were seeing.
So what are you basing YOUR opinion on? And who is more hyped than Pele anyway?
Could we repost the Pele videos?
Based on my research.. reading only…the most complete footballer. . was John Charles
The scary thing about ronaldo is that he accomplished all he did with career ending injuries. If you take those injuries out of the equation, the heights this man would have climbed. He did not win a champions league medal but 2 world cups would suffice I guress
he was a phenom barring injury he would have been even greater
As a card-carrying member of the Global Defenders’ Union, I am getting a headache at that thought.!
I 1st saw him with psv vs ajax who at the time had everyone and even though ajax won 5 to 1 he destroyed deboer etc all day and scored a wonder goal
I have always said that the greatest even goes in this order 1) the real Ronaldo 2) king Pele 3) the Don Diego 4) Messi and 5) Zidane. Messi is not even d greatest in his own country!!
ey man Gordon what going on….
What happen Hassan C Araujo? Hahaha i cool
Gordon Pierre nothing happen just cool as always…
Was to ask u how old ur nephew is?
he was just 14…why ? …lol
Yes….Ronaldo fully deserves to be right up there…..
Lasana,when he was young and dangerous he was not fat…Sir Alex damn fast with that comment….as for his greatness he is one of Brazil’s greatest….we spend too much time studying who is the greatest .. my opinion….
Sir Alex was disrespectful to one of the greatest players that’s ever lived. Talking crap
I cannot deny genius. He was Brazil’s greatest ever player. 🙂
Really, Lasana? So Pele is what? An also ran? Edson Arantes De Nascimento aka Pele is by far Brazil’s greatest player ever!!!!
Seriously…..but for his injuries, Ronaldo would have surpassed Maradona, and if he had added heading to his game in a serious way, he would definitely have challenged even Pele himself for the title of “greatest ever”. 🙂
You missed the discussions we had on this before Damian. Lol. Here’s what. Search Pele in the top right hand panel and then look through the video evidence.
Or go to Youtube and search for a full game–not highlights!–of any Pele game for Brazil. ANY one.
And then tell me what you think. 😉
I made a statement that in context, Ronaldo was more important to Brazil’s Wcup cause than Pele. Brought the house down in the office yes… :'( Lasana Liburd
And where the Guardian learn their Portuguese, in Rome?? Is O Fenomeno, not “il” LOL
He doesn’t need heading to pass Pele Christian. It is about magic and menace to me, not just adding up assets.
My husband and I had this exact conversation tonight. His mental record of football is better than mines. He provided the exact stays and more. I still don’t think a penalty kick can define Messi. Media is a great player. Most great ppl fail at important times to recover again. You know the other player who missed did not get hurl before public opinion who is to say if he got it right the next Chile player won’t have miss. . .but that’s what happens when you are grate, the world judge you more harshly. He is still a grate player of not the greatest and time is still in his side to do so.
Great article Joel Leach Hanna Sukhu-Maharaj
“The vast majority of lives, in football and elsewhere, end in failure.”
What an opening😢
Lol. Like Ramesh? They have to be sure he won’t mash up their party first.
Too bad he cannot get into Trinidad politics where disloyalty to your current party is rewarded by rival parties…
Guess foot-in-mouth disease is often fatal to public careers!
I don’t expect the TTFA can afford to pay his version of minimum wage! Lol
That was just tongue-in-cheek there 🙂 We are well below his standard even if we could meet his salary demands.
that is a touchy one to me..cause that look bought ..anyone cud say what they say!! but that CL was Bought …No way Bayern with how the was playing go in to that final an throw away goals so..an flop hard!!
Lasana – when you said Pep created a style, I almost choked laughing. What exact changes did Pep make in comparison to Barcelona of the past? There was certainly a change of personnel which by default alters how a system is implemented to take advantage of their strengths. But explain to me the tactical changes Pep made to the Barcelona way that began with Cryuff.
How do people rate di mateo winning the CL with Chelsea ?
Lasana Liburd well said, could not agree more, and ronaldo was still playing fantastic football at that time
Kendall, here is another difference. Jose won a title with Porto. Pep created a revolution with Barca that spawned a way of playing that teams and countries tried to emulate.
Not that he created the style from scratch but he made some notable modifications.
All the same, I agree that it was some feat for Jose to win the Champions League with Porto. No question.
I am still in mourning that Perez fired Carlo.
It takes great man management skills to handle a team of superstars. Pep certainly has that as does Anchelotti. Having the best players still requires knitting them into a coherent unit.
..I hear you. MY comment was not a response to yours. LOL..
There is no denying that clubs that can afford the best players dominate their respective leagues.
I didn’t dismiss Pep’s achievement at Barcelona. What I am saying is that the core of that team was already there and he had the resources to get whatever players he wanted.
In contrast, Porto achieved a level of success with Jose with far less resources and with players who weren’t global superstars at the time.
That’s why I rate what Jose did at Porto so highly.
..People who don’t really understand football and, moreso, coaching, assume that money guarantees success. I can only conclude this based on the commentary. You still have plenty work to do even when you have the biggest budget. People also let their likes and dislikes get in the way of fundamental respect for other people’s achievements..
However look at it is certain clubs he moves back an forth to an look at the pattern of his team building big spending .
Pep improved Barcelona though. The club was dipping and he cleared out top players like Ronaldinho and Deco and later Eto’o, Henry and Yaya and created a machine.
I agree that I would like to see him do it elsewhere. But I won’t dismiss his achievements at Barcelona so lightly. The man created one of the most formidable teams in the history of European club football.
..True. But you know what they say about points of view. LOLLLL..
Everyone has there point of view,its not rocket science
Another thing, it wasn’t just their accomplishments inside the ring that made boxing’s greats great. It was their overcoming of adversity and their willingness to take up causes greater than themselves.
That just ain’t Floyd!
“Don’t get me wrong, Mayweather is a superb fighter. He could teach a trigonometry class a thing or two about angles. He is so good defensively he can leave opponents dazed without even throwing a punch. His unbeaten record includes 10 world titles in five weight categories. And he will almost certainly go down as the finest boxer of this era.” A great boxer, undoubtedly, and the winner of the fight against Pacquaio without the slightest semblance of doubt, but the greatest of all time? No way! Muhammad Ali owns that title! I would also place Sugar Ray Robinson ahead of Floyd any day.
He was playing in Turkey? I think. Not sure but I stand to be corrected.
That would really be a surprise. Looks like he lacks the mental toughness.